Maggie Stiefvater writes of her experience with piracy

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Oh, I'd agree but how many of the ones who'd never pay are the ones saying they are pirating it because it's too expensive?

So you're in the don't buy it camp, no problem, I have a price ceiling myself.
You aren't saying your going to pirate it though.

Like I say, the market can only find a price if the third option of free doesn't exist.

4th option: Second hand.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

4th option: Second hand.

Good point, and libraries

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by haertig

Which has been growing nicely since they got rid of the DRM. They still sell songs for the same price they used to (99 cents, same as in the old days IIRC), but these days that 99 cents gets you music that is DRM-free, and you can play it on any of your devices. Paradoxically, it appears that the best way to curtail piracy may be to stop trying to curtail it using heavy-handed techniques. And they probably increased profit-per-song as well, since adding DRM imparts a cost to the distribution.

Many/most people consider being able to use something you bought on any of your devices, and to back it up locally, to be "reasonable use". Despite the fact that the law defines this otherwise. DRM takes away this reasonable use. Many here (most?) will strip off DRM and convert eBooks as they see fit to use on their other devices. When a law re-defines reasonable behavior as criminal, then people will simply ignore the law. Same thing for "You didn't buy this, you only licensed it". Again, trying to make reasonable use into something criminal. The word "criminal" being used here for convenience only, I know this is actually a "civil" violation most of the time.

Then people who ignore the law are labeled pirates, regardless if they upload their DRM-stripped books for distribution to freeloaders or not. I imagine that many/most here do not redistribute eBooks, but indeed strip DRM for their own private "reasonable use".

Then, a bad thing can happen. Once customers start to feel that they are being taken advantage of (high prices, DRM-restrictions) then they start to rebel. And that rebellion can take on the form of "I'm not going to pay for this, I'm going to a real pirate site and download it for free". This isn't right, which is why I called it a "bad thing", but my point is that it is not an unexpected reaction. It's human nature.

Is it wrong to pirate a book? IMHO, yes. Is it wrong to put onerous DRM on that book and charge high prices? IMHO, yes to this question as well. Of course, two wrongs don't make a right. But an unanswered wrong doesn't make a right either. Apple appears to have gotten this message regarding iTunes (music downloads, at least). They indeed took a risk when they got rid of DRM. But it paid off in spades, as iTunes is doing very well. Even better than before. When you poke someone, realize that you'll probably get poked back. Doesn't matter that poking is ill-advised for either side. It's called "human nature".

Yes, I agree.

[cromag]

In most cases pirate copies take some time to hit the internet. People who really want a copy as soon as possible will either have to buy a legit copy or wait for a pirated copy. Enough of them bought a copy that the first and second books sold well.

In the case of the third book, it was an eARC that was pirated, so people who wanted the book as soon as possible didn't have to buy a copy -- they downloaded the pirated copy in droves.

In the case of the fourth book, where they seeded the web with a "pirated" edition of their own, they used a crippled copy -- just the first four chapters repeated a few times. They watched requests on the web from people who were looking for a "real" copy. When the fourth book came out, in the absence of a pirated alternative, it sold well.

I thought it was handled well.


Of course, this is the YA market where many potential customers can be assumed to be low on cash, somewhat impatient, familiar with finding pirated copies, and not too concerned about getting malware on the family computer. I wonder if pricing plays into the numbers. Would teens be more willing to spend $3.99 on a book and more willing to look for pirated copies at "big publisher" prices?

[darryl]

I have made this comment many times. If I recall correctly, I even made it earlier in this thread. The miraculous thing, at least from the point of view of those who are extremely cynical about human nature, is that we have an ebook market at all. It is trivially easy to obtain a pirate copy of a book, or a movie, or a song. Yet, despite the loud complaints from "rights owners", these industries thrive. Though there is no definitive data to support this, I suspect that a reasonable price and convenient purchasing minimise losses from piracy, often to the point where few if any sales are lost because the persons pirating are those who were never going to buy it anyway.

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by darryl

data to support this, I suspect that a reasonable price and convenient purchasing minimise losses from piracy, often to the point where few if any sales are lost because the persons pirating are those who were never going to buy it anyway.

+1. And especially Amazon understands this. Why bother pirating when I can do a 'Buy with one click' and have the book magically appear seconds later on my Kindle or in my Kindle for <whatever>? I find buying ebooks from Amazon so convenient that I do almost all my shopping there, even though I own a Kobo.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by mbovenka

+1. And especially Amazon understands this. Why bother pirating when I can do a 'Buy with one click' and have the book magically appear seconds later on my Kindle or in my Kindle for <whatever>? I find buying ebooks from Amazon so convenient that I do almost all my shopping there, even though I own a Kobo.

Same here. I read on both my Oasis and my H20. But I buy virtually all of my books from Amazon.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by darryl

...Though there is no definitive data to support this, I suspect that a reasonable price and convenient purchasing minimise losses from piracy, often to the point where few if any sales are lost because the persons pirating are those who were never going to buy it anyway.

Yeah, that's my view as well.

Originally Posted by mbovenka

+1. And especially Amazon understands this. Why bother pirating when I can do a 'Buy with one click' and have the book magically appear seconds later on my Kindle or in my Kindle for <whatever>? I find buying ebooks from Amazon so convenient that I do almost all my shopping there, even though I own a Kobo.

Same for me. Though if Amazon ever does move KFX only I'll move on. I'm not saying they will do this, but it is a possibility. If they do, it will break the rule darryl mentioned above regarding 'convenient purchasing'

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

... Though if Amazon ever does move KFX only I'll move on. I'm not saying they will do this, but it is a possibility.

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic ... haven't they already done this? I know it's currently possible for the well-informed to get round it by installing an old version of Kindle4PC or by renaming one of the program files, but that isn't a solution 'provided' by Amazon.

If you use out-of-the-box Amazon software and don't own an old eink Kindle what options currently exist to read an Amazon purchase on a non-Amazon eink device? As far as I know my only options would be to read in Kindle4PC on my PC screen or in Kindle4Android on my phone/tablet. For me, both of these would be a huge step back in reading functionality. Am I missing something?

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by haertig

Which has been growing nicely since they got rid of the DRM. They still sell songs for the same price they used to (99 cents, same as in the old days IIRC), but these days that 99 cents gets you music that is DRM-free, and you can play it on any of your devices. Paradoxically, it appears that the best way to curtail piracy may be to stop trying to curtail it using heavy-handed techniques. And they probably increased profit-per-song as well, since adding DRM imparts a cost to the distribution.

Many/most people consider being able to use something you bought on any of your devices, and to back it up locally, to be "reasonable use". Despite the fact that the law defines this otherwise. DRM takes away this reasonable use. Many here (most?) will strip off DRM and convert eBooks as they see fit to use on their other devices. When a law re-defines reasonable behavior as criminal, then people will simply ignore the law. Same thing for "You didn't buy this, you only licensed it". Again, trying to make reasonable use into something criminal. The word "criminal" being used here for convenience only, I know this is actually a "civil" violation most of the time.

Then people who ignore the law are labeled pirates, regardless if they upload their DRM-stripped books for distribution to freeloaders or not. I imagine that many/most here do not redistribute eBooks, but indeed strip DRM for their own private "reasonable use".

Then, a bad thing can happen. Once customers start to feel that they are being taken advantage of (high prices, DRM-restrictions) then they start to rebel. And that rebellion can take on the form of "I'm not going to pay for this, I'm going to a real pirate site and download it for free". This isn't right, which is why I called it a "bad thing", but my point is that it is not an unexpected reaction. It's human nature.

Is it wrong to pirate a book? IMHO, yes. Is it wrong to put onerous DRM on that book and charge high prices? IMHO, yes to this question as well. Of course, two wrongs don't make a right. But an unanswered wrong doesn't make a right either. Apple appears to have gotten this message regarding iTunes (music downloads, at least). They indeed took a risk when they got rid of DRM. But it paid off in spades, as iTunes is doing very well. Even better than before. When you poke someone, realize that you'll probably get poked back. Doesn't matter that poking is ill-advised for either side. It's called "human nature".

Actually Apple always opposed DRM, but that was the only way that the Music companies would allow the music be sold on iTunes. iTunes actually grew to be the biggest music store by a large margin with DRM. Apple being the biggest distributor bothered the music companies quite a bit, so they agreed to allow Amazon to sale music DRM free, which they hoped would grow Amazon so they would have Amazon and Apple in competition. About a year later, Jobs was able to strong arm the music companies into allowing him to sell music DRM free as well and DRM for downloadable music for the most part became a thing of the past.

The book publishers were trying the same sort of thing, setting up Apple to be the big competitor to Amazon, but Amazon was able to use their contacts in the US government to go after the publishers and Apple on anti-trust charges. Apple decided that a major push into ebooks wasn't really worth it, so Amazon still doesn't have any major competition. Ironically, the publishers got their agency model pricing from Amazon once Amazon was no longer worried about competition.

Yes, the best way to combat piracy is to make the desired works available in desired format, at a reasonable price. Piracy is never going to be stamped out completely. For the vast majority of the reading public, DRM is not an issue.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by cromag

In most cases pirate copies take some time to hit the internet. People who really want a copy as soon as possible will either have to buy a legit copy or wait for a pirated copy. Enough of them bought a copy that the first and second books sold well.

In the case of the third book, it was an eARC that was pirated, so people who wanted the book as soon as possible didn't have to buy a copy -- they downloaded the pirated copy in droves.

In the case of the fourth book, where they seeded the web with a "pirated" edition of their own, they used a crippled copy -- just the first four chapters repeated a few times. They watched requests on the web from people who were looking for a "real" copy. When the fourth book came out, in the absence of a pirated alternative, it sold well.

I thought it was handled well.


Of course, this is the YA market where many potential customers can be assumed to be low on cash, somewhat impatient, familiar with finding pirated copies, and not too concerned about getting malware on the family computer. I wonder if pricing plays into the numbers. Would teens be more willing to spend $3.99 on a book and more willing to look for pirated copies at "big publisher" prices?

Actually, the last point is a very good point. Teens and kids are the largest group of pirates in the US, at least from the point of downloading pirated material (mostly music and movies, but also ebooks). The part of the brain that evaluates risk is one of the last parts of the brain to fully develop and frequently doesn't fully develop until the mid 20's. That's one of the biggest reasons that teens do stupid stuff. Delayed gratification is also something that tends to develop later.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic ... haven't they already done this?

Yes, but...

I know it's currently possible for the well-informed to get round it by installing an old version of Kindle4PC or by renaming one of the program files, but that isn't a solution 'provided' by Amazon.

As long as that works, that is fine. Those that are worried about format shifting Kindle books to read on another device can go through the trouble to do it.

What I was talking about is if they decide that the older versions of K4PC no longer work (they've done this in the past). If that goes away, so will I.

[rixte]

Here's the part that ultimately make her story fall apart for me:

"Book three, however, faltered in strange ways. The print copies sold just as well as before, landing it on the list, but the e-copies dropped precipitously. "

"Then they told me that they were cutting the print run of The Raven King to less than half of the print run for Blue Lily, Lily Blue. No hard feelings, understand, they told me, it’s just that the sales for Blue Lily didn’t justify printing any more copies."

If the print version is selling just as well as the first books in the series, it doesn't make sense to drop the PRINT run of the fourth book ... unless it was an overgenerous print run in the first place.

And then, apparently, rather than buying the ebook version, the pirates bought physical copies instead of ebook ones? Why are the same people who at midnight are frantically asking to find a 'legit pdf' so they can read this book then going to the online bookstore and buying a physical copy that takes two days to arrive instead of an ebook one? ( online orders had emptied the warehouse). Because it wasn't that ebook sales soared, it's that releasing a fake book on the web supposedly made the *print* run sell out.

Maybe the print run sold out in two days because it was half the size of the previous one and the publisher just made a terrible call reducing it based on ebook sales? And not because of an inability of people to find a pirated version?

I mean, I am probably biased because I prefer ebook to paper in general, but I just don't think her reasoning makes sense.

[darryl]

@rixte. Excellent point. It seems there are so many flaws in this narrative that nothing is left.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The book publishers were trying the same sort of thing, setting up Apple to be the big competitor to Amazon, but Amazon was able to use their contacts in the US government to go after the publishers and Apple on anti-trust charges. Apple decided that a major push into ebooks wasn't really worth it, so Amazon still doesn't have any major competition. Ironically, the publishers got their agency model pricing from Amazon once Amazon was no longer worried about competition.

Yes, the best way to combat piracy is to make the desired works available in desired format, at a reasonable price. Piracy is never going to be stamped out completely. For the vast majority of the reading public, DRM is not an issue.

I agree with much of what you say here, so will focus on where we disagree. If book publishers were aiming at setting up Apple as competition for Amazon, they certainly have a funny idea of competition. Certainly there would be no price competition at a retail level nor of course at a non-existent wholesale level. Even competition on other things than price would be so limited as to be virtually irrelevant. What form do you think this competition would have taken? What benefits would it have had for the public?

I also find it surprising that you look at successful litigation by the Dept of Justice in a very straight forward price fixing cartel case, and say that Amazon had to use "their contacts in the US government" to have its valid and obvious complaint investigated. I'm sure both Apple and Amazon, like most large corporates, have their contacts in the US government, but I am not aware of any evidence that Amazon or any officials behaved improperly. Nor why Amazon's mysterious contacts were so much more effective than Apple's in this instance. I would be interested in the basis of this particular assertion. Likewise for the assertion that the publishers got their agency model pricing from Amazon?

I totally agree with you so far as the statements in your last paragraph are concerned.