common mystery trope that bugs me

[Quoth]

Thor's hammer may be a smith's hammer, not a weapon. See ancient Viking carvings, ornaments and Icelandic writing.
The TV / Comic / Cinema Asgard folk have very little in common with the sagas of the Vikings preserved in Iceland.

[JSWolf]

I did like the guest of the week being the murderer in Columbo. I also liked that you saw how the murder was committed and who did it at the very beginning. What made the show different was that it was about how Columboi went about solving the murder.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Thor's hammer may be a smith's hammer, not a weapon. See ancient Viking carvings, ornaments and Icelandic writing.
The TV / Comic / Cinema Asgard folk have very little in common with the sagas of the Vikings preserved in Iceland.

Most of the images I've seen show a rather short handled sledge hammer design. Perfect for cracking goat bones to get the marrow out.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Thor's hammer may be a smith's hammer, not a weapon. See ancient Viking carvings, ornaments and Icelandic writing.
The TV / Comic / Cinema Asgard folk have very little in common with the sagas of the Vikings preserved in Iceland.

Yes, of course--and as FJtorres said, indeed, Thor was often duped by Loki, but in Ragnarok, I just felt he was passively being duped, not actively by Loki. You'll see if you watch it.

And I personally prefer the old myths. I do have to admit to having had a mad little-girl crush on Marvel's Thor when I was about 8y.o., though! :-) He'd been introduced the year before, and yup, I was crazy for Thor. Ha! (I had to sneak comics into the house; my mother felt that they were dreck, and that we should be reading real books.)

Hitch

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Hitch

And I personally prefer the old myths. I do have to admit to having had a mad little-girl crush on Marvel's Thor when I was about 8y.o., though! :-) He'd been introduced the year before, and yup, I was crazy for Thor. Ha! (I had to sneak comics into the house; my mother felt that they were dreck, and that we should be reading real books.)

Hitch

Funny thing about fantasy: these days there is very little use of the classic mythologies.
Tolkien's shadow froze too much of the epic fantasy subgenre into quasi-medieval forms.

One thing the better THOR and WW runs did was mine the norse and greek myths for fun stories. I'd love to see more Olympian and Asgardian fantasies along the lines of Lester Del Rey's DAY OF THE GIANTS.
He got Loki and Thor right, too.

Anyway, back to the mystery tropes thing, Asimov's BLACK WIDOWERS bar trope could also use some modern mining. Maybe set in a cop bar or during a floating poker game, like on Castle.

Most genres have at a few classic tropes that could stand to be dusted off and reused. In SF, there's the road trip/triptych format. It used to be pretty common early last century but the last good ones I've run into are Harrison's DEATHWORLDs and Farmer's GREEN ODDYSEY.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

my mother felt that they were dreck, and that we should be reading real books.
Hitch

We had to read real books, mostly from the Library. USA comic imports stocked by few shops and way too expensive. About 1/2 the price of a kid's book.

Maybe she was right.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Funny thing about fantasy: these days there is very little use of the classic mythologies.
Tolkien's shadow froze too much of the epic fantasy subgenre into quasi-medieval forms.

Depends what authors you pick, though some of it like Rick Riordan are pretty light hearted. There is Stephan Lawhead, Joanne Harris, Mary Stewart, Ray McCarthy, Neil Gaiman, Michael Scott, Robert Holdstock, Derek Landy and loads of other Fantasy authors that while not making use of Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic, Egyptian, Babylonian and Chinese certainly are not either stereotypical Medieval nor bad versions of Tolkien.

I'd not regard Greek mythology as at all being more important or in any way better than other accessible mythologies, the putting of Greek and to a lesser extent Latin on a pedestal is largely an artefact of the English Public School and the so called Classical Education that takes the Ancient Roman view that only the Greeks were cultured, the Keltoi were savages (one of the early famous Roman playwrights was a Celt from Northern Italy). The Greeks themselves had a more balanced view of the Celts (they extended as far as Northern Turkey), Phoenicians, Babylonians, Hittites and Egyptians. You'd want to take a lot that Julius Caesar wrote about North Africans, Keltoi (the Gauls was a Roman term for Celts) and the East Europeans that displaced Celts (e.g. Helvetii to Switzerland) with a bucket of salt!

Also I think the quasi-medieval stuff was more Warhammer / RPG driven? Tolkien mines ancient Celtic (elves = Sidhe), Scandinavian (Dwarves), Greek, Teutonic / Germanic etc (Rohan, Wargs). I'd only recognise the Hobbits as being purely his own invention.

Most Arthurian stuff *IS* medieval French and not much like the older Welsh and Cornish Celtic legends. Lancelot didn't exist. Guinevere was as much Fay as Morgan, who was no relation to Arthur. Avalon was the Isle of Apples, also in Irish Myth. Nothing to do with Glastonbury. The Morrigan is nothing to do with Arthur either or Morgan le Fay. Irish for Terror Queen, though mór in modern Irish is an unrelated word.

[arjaybe]

It's quite possible for TV to be bad even in its golden age. It might just be as good as TV can get.-)

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I'd not regard Greek mythology as at all being more important or in any way better than other accessible mythologies,

I have several dozen books about the various world mythologies (most of which were cosmologies and religions rather than folk stories) but not all as well documented as the European mythologies. (Makes it hard for non-pros.) Most are even less used than greek, norse, and celtic myths. Japanese myths I've found a few nice fantasies in translation, though.

(And no, I don't count MOANA or anything else Disney-fied.)

[Uncle Robin]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

(And no, I don't count MOANA or anything else Disney-fied.)

One thing I noticed from spending a lot of time in New Zealand was the way Māori mythic figures are used in official contexts, as with Te Ika a Māui (the fish of Māui) for the North Island; Te Matau a Māui (the hook of Māui, referencing the Māori 'genesis' story for the island) for the province of Hawke's Bay; Te Whare Tangaroa (the house of Tangaroa, god of the sea) for the national aquarium; and Ngāti Tūmatauenga (tribe of Tūmatauenga, god of war) for the army. And, of course, the widespread use of the name Moana, predating Disney by many decades.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Uncle Robin

One thing I noticed from spending a lot of time in New Zealand was the way Māori mythic figures are used in official contexts, as with Te Ika a Māui (the fish of Māui) for the North Island; Te Matau a Māui (the hook of Māui, referencing the Māori 'genesis' story for the island) for the province of Hawke's Bay; Te Whare Tangaroa (the house of Tangaroa, god of the sea) for the national aquarium; and Ngāti Tūmatauenga (tribe of Tūmatauenga, god of war) for the army. And, of course, the widespread use of the name Moana, predating Disney by many decades.

Who bears little resemblance to what Disney peddled, right?

[Uncle Robin]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Who bears little resemblance to what Disney peddled, right?

Well, the Māui of Polynesian myth is definitely nothing like the cartoon version in the movie, and the only Moana I know personally is a man in his 70s, so again, not exactly the Disney's doppelgänger.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

I have several dozen books about the various world mythologies (most of which were cosmologies and religions rather than folk stories) but not all as well documented as the European mythologies. (Makes it hard for non-pros.) Most are even less used than greek, norse, and celtic myths. Japanese myths I've found a few nice fantasies in translation, though.

(And no, I don't count MOANA or anything else Disney-fied.)

Indeed I noted that we depend on the translations to English. I've watched some Chinese and Japanese films based on their legends (with subtitles, many in B&W). Some of which are accessible in English. Generally excellent compared to Disney syrup.

I'm against censorship, but I really wonder should there be a massive import duty everywhere outside the USA on the perverted and distorted Hollywood versions of history (Pocahontas) and myth/fairy (Anderson's Mermaid, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Mulan, Braveheart, Moana, Aladdin and Norse). And also the related toys. Related, Lucas got $100M from Hasbro towards making the Phantom Menace. Also warnings on the package that it's only vaguely inspired by the original stories. I and wife missed Disney Sleeping Beauty as kids and found it an appalling "re-telling". The stupid fluttering three fairies. Deletion of the 100 years!

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I'm against censorship, but I really wonder should there be a massive import duty everywhere outside the USA on the perverted and distorted Hollywood versions of history (Pocahontas) and myth/fairy (Anderson's Mermaid, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Mulan, Braveheart, Moana, Aladdin and Norse). And also the related toys. Related, Lucas got $100M from Hasbro towards making the Phantom Menace. Also warnings on the package that it's only vaguely inspired by the original stories. I and wife missed Disney Sleeping Beauty as kids and found it an appalling "re-telling". The stupid fluttering three fairies. Deletion of the 100 years!

The best substitute for the kneejerk impulse to censor is education.
Especially with kids. Just warn them the Disney shows take place in a fuzzy wuzzy parallel world that bears no resemblance to reality. No need to introduce them to reality until they're old enough for the GRIMS or LANG. With appropriate guidance they can enjoy them as harmless fantasies and develop an eye for fun stories.

The challenge is to let kids be kids as long as possible and shield them from culture wars as long as possible. Harder and harder every day. Engagement is harder than blockade but it helps world-proof the kid.

[Uncle Robin]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

No need to introduce them to reality until they're old enough for the GRIMS ...

I've long thought it it mildly amusing that the brothers Grimm collected/collated stories whichwere indeed Grim. Pratchett played on the serendipitous similarity of spelling too, with The Sisters Grim (Agoniza and Eviscera) in his excellent homage to fairy stories, The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents