A.M. and P.M.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

And you have the authority to impose US usage onto an Irishman because?

It's not even USA usage. See AP and some US newspaper style guides. It's not like Webster's spelling (prescriptive vs OED reflecting usage).

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

It's not even USA usage. See AP and some US newspaper style guides. It's not like Webster's spelling (prescriptive vs OED reflecting usage).

FWIW, the CMOS (Chicago Manual of Style) recommends a.m. and p.m. which are nearly the easiest to type. I was sort of hoping they'd morphed to am pm, but nope, they still use the periods.

I agree with DNSB--whatever you use, just be consistent.

Hitch

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

FWIW, the CMOS (Chicago Manual of Style) recommends a.m. and p.m.

That's the one I was thinking of, but I only have an old version.
I nearly went for a.m. & p.m., but eventually decided on am and pm, but I certainly wasn't going to use small caps.

[BetterRed]

If you use ' am' and ' pm' or ' AM' and ' PM' the space should be non breaking. The moment a copy-editor turns the page an 'am' at the start of a line will leap up shouting "Grammar Alert". Similarly an AM or PM at the start of a line will be waving a purple highlight pen

Some style guides (including CMOS as I recall) recommend avoidance of unnecessary precision - i.e. 'just after eleven in the morning blah-de-blah…' rather than 'at 11:09 a.m. blah-de-blah…'

BR

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

FWIW, the CMOS (Chicago Manual of Style) recommends a.m. and p.m. which are nearly the easiest to type. I was sort of hoping they'd morphed to am pm, but nope, they still use the periods.

You probably have a pretty even split across all (5?) different AM/PM types.

This is one rule where, realistically, the author's/publisher's "House Style" would overrule whatever major Style Guide the publisher is following.

The key thing is: Consistency within the same work.

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Some style guides (including CMOS as I recall) recommend avoidance of unnecessary precision - i.e. 'just after eleven in the morning blah-de-blah…' rather than 'at 11:09 a.m. blah-de-blah…'

This reminds me of one of the most dumb "rules" I completely ignore:

"Fully typing out small numbers as words!"

I normalize numbers throughout, depending on context, always erring on the side of number-form.

Stuff like ages, units, percentages, etc.:

• I was three years old in 1925.
• I walked five kilometers and 30 miles.
• Ten out of 25 people says this is false.
• Almost three percent of the people polled said 50% are wrong.
• The interest rate was between one percent and 10.5% in those years.
• Between two percent and seven percent of the contestants.

vs.

• I was 3 years old in 1925.
• I walked 5 kilometers and 30 miles.
• 10 out of 25 people says this is false.
• Almost 3% of the people polled said 50% are wrong.
• The interest rate was between 1% and 10.5% in those years.
• Between 2–7% of the contestants.

It's like there's a complete aversion to digits... more than 50%fifty percent of the time!

And that last one is my favorite, because it goes from 29 characters down to four4.

- - -

Side Note: I forget what the "rule" is, I haven't looked at it in so long... but if I remember it correctly, it's something like:

"Spell out numbers smaller than ten."

Pure idiocrity is what it is!

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

This reminds me of one of the most dumb "rules" I completely ignore:

"Fully typing out small numbers as words!"

Side Note: I forget what the "rule" is, I haven't looked at it in so long... but if I remember it correctly, it's something like:

"Spell out numbers smaller than ten."

Pure idiocrity is what it is!

That's a too simplistic rule. Certainly some kinds of numbers should always be digits:
House numbers
Phone numbers
Account / credit card numbers.
Probably measurements & values.

Numbers in some style guides are differentiated.
Identity: Always digits. IBAN, UPC/EAN/ISBN, house numbers, phone numbers. No commas. Mathematically they are not numbers.

Measurements: Always digits. Use of space, comma or period to group threes varies with language. Some only add grouping from 10,000. Cardinal, real, irrational and complex. They can be used mathematically,

Positional or Ranked numbers. Can be spelled or digits depending on context. Second or 2nd.

Dates are a special kind of Ranked number: Dates use digits, British usage 2nd of October. USA dates confuse everyone else if the month is digits. Also called Ordinal numbers. Be consistent, thus if 17th C., all are like that, but if Seventeenth
Century, then all are spelled in full. Decide on your style and be consistent.

Ages: Some guides say always spell, others write that it's context (like 32 years old in 1961). We used to say someone was four and twenty, so the hyphen reflects the original ‘and’ when we say twenty-four.

Fractions: On paper there is no problem with typesetting fractions as digits, but ebook rendering can vary. Sometimes it’s better to spell ‘half’, ‘third’, ‘quarter’ as we do with counts. Be consistent. Perhaps context matters, so half of a loaf or sixth of a pie should be used, never 1/2 a loaf or 1/6th of a pie. The method of superscript, slash, subscript should work for any fraction like 2178/3892. Support for characters like like ½ in quarters, eighths and sixteenths might be limited. Text books should use mathematical symbol systems.

Summary: Some kinds of numbers can clearly always be digits. Other kinds are more difficult as to whether you spell or use digits.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

If you use ' am' and ' pm' or ' AM' and ' PM' the space should be non breaking. The moment a copy-editor turns the page an 'am' at the start of a line will leap up shouting "Grammar Alert". Similarly an AM or PM at the start of a line will be waving a purple highlight pen

Some style guides (including CMOS as I recall) recommend avoidance of unnecessary precision - i.e. 'just after eleven in the morning blah-de-blah…' rather than 'at 11:09 a.m. blah-de-blah…'

BR

Most of the time AM/PM is without a space. 10A.M.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Most of the time AM/PM is without a space. 10A.M.

I really don't mean to be the Anti-wolfie...I really don't. But I have rarely seen an AM/PM that doesn't have a space! It is so rare that I don't think I've ever seen one without a space. Perhaps you are reading a completely different language/genre/era of books?? Or maybe you are cleaning up archive books that the archivist or scanning software did weird things like that?!?!

In any case, BetterRed's very first word was IF....so the point is still valid:

If you use ' am' and ' pm' or ' AM' and ' PM' the space should be non breaking.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I really don't mean to be the Anti-wolfie...I really don't. But I have rarely seen an AM/PM that doesn't have a space! It is so rare that I don't think I've ever seen one without a space. Perhaps you are reading a completely different language/genre/era of books?? Or maybe you are cleaning up archive books that the archivist or scanning software did weird things like that?!?!

In any case, BetterRed's very first word was IF....so the point is still valid:

To be fair, I see both. Not sure where/why; haven't really paid attention, as we have our own requirements in-house and I don't change them without compelling reasons, but yes, I've seen both.

I wish that CMOS, et al, would change it to just PM/AM or something. Typing the longer version is a PITA.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

To be fair, I see both. Not sure where/why; haven't really paid attention, as we have our own requirements in-house and I don't change them without compelling reasons, but yes, I've seen both.

I wish that CMOS, et al, would change it to just PM/AM or something. Typing the longer version is a PITA.

Hitch

I would not want any CMOS to change AM/PM. My computer works well as is.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

To be fair, I see both. Not sure where/why; haven't really paid attention, as we have our own requirements in-house and I don't change them without compelling reasons, but yes, I've seen both.

I wish that CMOS, et al, would change it to just PM/AM or something. Typing the longer version is a PITA.

Hitch

Just as you find A.M. annoying vs AM. I find the UK way of Mr, Dr, Jr, etc without the . (Mr., Dr., Jr.) annoying.

I wish English would standardize. (IMHO), why did the UK have to go so odd in some cases? The US and the UK started with the same English because the Pilgrims were from the UK. So what happened to the UK?

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The US and the UK started with the same English because the Pilgrims were from the UK. So what happened to the UK?

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...postcount=2120

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I would not want any CMOS to change AM/PM. My computer works well as is.

I'm sure you don't. For those of us that have to adjust/change, edit those, 100x daily (okay, that's hyperbole, but a lot) a nice EASY standardized AM or PM would be loverly.

Just saying.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'm sure you don't. For those of us that have to adjust/change, edit those, 100x daily (okay, that's hyperbole, but a lot) a nice EASY standardized AM or PM would be loverly.

Just saying.

Hitch

CMOS = complementary metal oxide semiconductor

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Just as you find A.M. annoying vs AM. I find the UK way of Mr, Dr, Jr, etc without the . (Mr., Dr., Jr.) annoying.

I wish English would standardize. (IMHO), why did the UK have to go so odd in some cases? The US and the UK started with the same English because the Pilgrims were from the UK. So what happened to the UK?

"I shall detain you no longer in the demonstration of what we should not do, but strait conduct ye to a hill side, where I will point ye out the right path of a vertuous and noble Education; laborious indeed at the first ascent, but else so smooth, so green, so full of goodly prospect, and melodious sounds on every side, that the Harp of Orpheus was not more charming. I doubt not but ye shall have more adoe to drive our dullest and laziest youth, our stocks and stubbs from the infinite desire of such a happy nurture, then we have now to hale and drag our choisest and hopefullest Wits to that asinine feast of sow-thistles and brambles which is commonly set before them, as all the food and entertainment of their tenderest and most docible age."

John Milton "Of Education" 1644

One hears similar prolix in the pronouncements of every US Police Commissioner there ever was, but sadly not the lyricism.

The firefox spellchecker detects 6 misspelt words in that passage using its UK dictionary, 7 using its US dictionary, and 8 using its Australian dictionary. For some reason Australians have a problem with superlative adjectives (drives me nuts) and like Americans they also have a problem with joined up names for weeds.

BR