Seperating the Wheat from the Chaff

[kennyc]

After a few weeks of research and investigating ebook readers I settled on the Sony 505 and am loving it. Interestingly along the way it seems I've found that the ebook world is a mirror of the WWW.

What does that mean? It seems that the floodgates are open. There is no longer a gatekeeper. The WWW allows anyone to post - i.e. PUBLISH anything, right, wrong or indifferent. Wikipedia has run smack-dab into this and are now considering having gatekeepers (i.e. editors) for various pages/topics and not allowing anyone to post just anything without verification.

It seems there is a tremendous amount of trash out there in/on both the web and ebooks (free and/or non-free).

To me it seems the issue is to somehow navigate the flotsam and jetsam and avoid the chaff while finding the wheat.

I certainly don't have time to read the entire web, nor to read and evaluate every ebook that pops up. Seems to me the issue is how do we manage/find/evaluate what to read and avoid the garbage that can be thrown out there by every wanna-be author and publishing house such that we don't waste our time?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

After a few weeks of research and investigating ebook readers I settled on the Sony 505 and am loving it. Interestingly along the way it seems I've found that the ebook world is a mirror of the WWW.

What does that mean? It seems that the floodgates are open. There is no longer a gatekeeper. The WWW allows anyone to post - i.e. PUBLISH anything, right, wrong or indifferent. Wikipedia has run smack-dab into this and are now considering having gatekeepers (i.e. editors) for various pages/topics and not allowing anyone to post just anything without verification.

It seems there is a tremendous amount of trash out there in/on both the web and ebooks (free and/or non-free).

To me it seems the issue is to somehow navigate the flotsam and jetsam and avoid the chaff while finding the wheat.

I certainly don't have time to read the entire web, nor to read and evaluate every ebook that pops up. Seems to me the issue is how do we manage/find/evaluate what to read and avoid the garbage that can be thrown out there by every wanna-be author and publishing house such that we don't waste our time?

Wait...are you actually suggesting that it is a bad thing that you have to make up your own mind on what is good and what is bad? If not, I apologize, but it certainly come across that way to me.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Wait...are you actually suggesting that it is a bad thing that you have to make up your own mind on what is good and what is bad? If not, I apologize, but it certainly come across that way to me.

No I'm saying, not suggesting, that there is too much garbage that I don't want to have to wade through, life is too short.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

No I'm saying, not suggesting, that there is too much garbage that I don't want to have to wade through, life is too short.

I ask this in all seriousness, what did you do before you got a reader? I'm curious as to what you think has changed from then to now. You still have the same tastes, right? You're still attracted by certain elements in stories, I would assume? You still have a critical faculty where you would know if a book is worthy or not (and that doesn't take much more than a couple of paragraphs to discern).

Seems to me you want someone to tell you what to read, some arbiter of taste that you can trust. Is that what you're looking for?

[kennyc]

Joe, everything changed with the internet/web and with it's ability for EVERYONE to Publish ANYTHING -- good or not. As I said I don't want to read the entire internet, nor do I want to spend my time reading every ebook publication to see if it is worth my time.

I think there was some of what I'm saying in the print world in the reviews, anthologies, etc. What I'm suggesting is that with the flood of ebooks (many of which would never have made it through the ranks of the publication process) the situation is worse. I see many websites pushing their (less than good) products and authors self-publishing and pushing their work -- work which would never see the light of day except for that fact that they are now their own writer, editor, publisher and promoter.

What I'm saying is there is a greater need for trustworthy reviewing of ebooks than there was in the print world.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Joe, everything changed with the internet/web and with it's ability for EVERYONE to Publish ANYTHING -- good or not. As I said I don't want to read the entire internet, nor do I want to spend my time reading every ebook publication to see if it is worth my time.

I think there was some of what I'm saying in the print world in the reviews, anthologies, etc. What I'm suggesting is that with the flood of ebooks (many of which would never have made it through the ranks of the publication process) the situation is worse. I see many websites pushing their (less than good) products and authors self-publishing and pushing their work -- work which would never see the light of day except for that fact that they are now their own writer, editor, publisher and promoter.

What I'm saying is there is a greater need for trustworthy reviewing of ebooks than there was in the print world.

I think this is where you and I differ most greatly. I don't trust reviewers, especially reviewers in the old media world (a bigger bought and sold bunch there is not). I do respect the opinions of friends, even when those opinions are absolutely wrong and I hate the book/music/film etc. I know what I like, and the preponderance of 'indie-publishing' efforts means that I have more chances of finding something I like, not less. I suppose it's because I come from the world where independently published music was the norm for me, and that mentality has crossed over. I still don't understand why so many readers are reticent to try new writers and, especially, writers who offer their work for free. You'll know within a chapter if you like the work or not. I usually know after a paragraph, and then that's after I've first been enticed by a blurb. I spend no more time deciding on fiction now, than I did before I got a reader. I just have more to read now than ever before, and a lot of it better (Nick Name, Small Stories at Feedbooks being amongst my favourites, also a brilliant book called Tokyo Zero by Marc Horne, which is well worth reading).

I'm currently reading this long/short story - Sweet Dream, Silver Screen by Moxie Mezcal - http://www.feedbooks.com/userbook/7386 - which I'm loving, and its free too

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I ask this in all seriousness, what did you do before you got a reader? I'm curious as to what you think has changed from then to now. You still have the same tastes, right? You're still attracted by certain elements in stories, I would assume?

The old methods does not scale well when we get a big infusion of books that have not passed a gatekeeper. That is why I ignore nearly all books that have not passed a publisher.

You still have a critical faculty where you would know if a book is worthy or not (and that doesn't take much more than a couple of paragraphs to discern).

That is not true at all. You have to read maybe 100 pages to be able to tell if it is a good book you want to read or just an OK book that was a waste if time to read since you then will read one less good book.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by tompe

The old methods does not scale well when we get a big infusion of books that have not passed a gatekeeper. That is why I ignore nearly all books that have not passed a publisher.


That is not true at all. You have to read maybe 100 pages to be able to tell if it is a good book you want to read or just an OK book that was a waste if time to read since you then will read one less good book.

No, you have to read maybe 100 pages. I can usually discern my own tastes within a page or at most a chapter. I waste less time now looking at books than I did beforehand, because I need that time to read. Physical books I would give 50 pages before I got my reader, but now they get 1 page, maybe a few more. I don't have time to waste, and so I don't waste it any longer.

I have very little I can say about someone who is unwilling to try new things and must have the old publishing industry as a kind of taste-tester for him or her. Do you have this same attitude with music also? With films and radio and all culture? About 90% of my cultural intake is from independent publishers of all kinds, and I would hate to think what I'd have missed out on if I'd approached my cultural intake with the kind of passive attitude with which you approach yours.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

No, you have to read maybe 100 pages. I can usually discern my own tastes within a page or at most a chapter. I waste less time now looking at books than I did beforehand, because I need that time to read. Physical books I would give 50 pages before I got my reader, but now they get 1 page, maybe a few more. I don't have time to waste, and so I don't waste it any longer.

I really do not believe that you can read a couple of paragraphs and decide if the book is good or very good or if it is only OK. An OK book is also a book that fall within you tastes.

I have very little I can say about someone who is unwilling to try new things and must have the old publishing industry as a kind of taste-tester for him or her. Do you have this same attitude with music also? With films and radio and all culture? About 90% of my cultural intake is from independent publishers of all kinds, and I would hate to think what I'd have missed out on if I'd approached my cultural intake with the kind of passive attitude with which you approach yours.

I am waiting for better gatekeepers to appear to replace publishers. Independent publishers can have an OK reputation and can work as a filter. An independent publisher is not the same as a self publisher.

[lilac_jive]

One man's trash is one man's treasure

This goes the same for pbooks, in my opinion. There's a lot of crap books out there that top the bestseller list. There's a lot of junk ebooks out there, sure, but I wade through them by seeing recommendations on here, or checking them out on goodreads.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I think this is where you and I differ most greatly. I don't trust reviewers, especially reviewers in the old media world (a bigger bought and sold bunch there is not). I do respect the opinions of friends, even when those opinions are absolutely wrong and I hate the book/music/film etc.

The fanfic world has the same problem, only more so. (There've never been any notable publishing standards in fanfic. There's great stuff, and crap, and sorting them out has always been the reader's problem.) In the fanfic world, we have fests and awards and "rec lists" (recommendations) and reviews; while a total beginner is working a bit blind, they can at least find something that says "I might like this."

For fanfic, I suggest they start by looking for stories that won awards, possibly multiple awards, and read a couple of those; if they like them, look for authors who are featured in the same rec lists with those authors.

This is considerably harder to do for non-fanfic; the only ebook awards I know of are the Eppies, which don't cover free ebooks, and don't get much (any?) attention from print publishers. I don't know of any genre-specific awards for "best science fiction ebooks;" none for "best mystery ebooks;" certainly none for "best poetry ebook."

I know what I like, and the preponderance of 'indie-publishing' efforts means that I have more chances of finding something I like, not less. .... I still don't understand why so many readers are reticent to try new writers and, especially, writers who offer their work for free. You'll know within a chapter if you like the work or not.

I tend to stick to fanfic by authors I know, trying out new ones when they're recommended by people whose tastes I know I like. I have less reading time than I'd like, and I'm not wasting it downloading, transferring, and reading a chapter or two of something totally unknown, instead of something I *know* I will enjoy.

I usually know after a paragraph, and then that's after I've first been enticed by a blurb. I spend no more time deciding on fiction now, than I did before I got a reader.

I used to be able to pick up a book, glance at the cover, and open the first pages. Time: maybe 30 seconds. Decide to buy: another minute. I can equate "read the ebook page" with checking out the cover--that gives me a paragraph of info to decide if it sounds interesting. However, the "open book & read a few lines" part has gotten a lot more troublesome.

Connect Reader to computer: 30 sec
Download book: 30 sec-2 minutes, depending on details of connection (we'll bypass my dialup issues at home; I try to download where there's free wifi.)
Disconnect Reader, start Reader: 30 sec-1 min
Go to "books sorted by date;" open new book: 30 sec-2 min, depending on book

At least 4x as long, sometimes 10x as long... assuming I don't have to tweak PDF settings to make the book readable. And another minute or two to get rid of it if I don't like it, or having to do it all again, adding a "go find the website again," if that was the free sample and I like it and want to pay for it.

Forget it. I've got plenty of stuff to read at Yuletide. Converting those stories to RTF and throwing them on my Reader is much less hassle than trying to find new authors.

I don't need a publisher to tell me what I like, but my time is valuable, and I'm not wasting it downloading and sampling ebooks at random, either. Not when there's endless good content in genres I know I enjoy, with filtering methods I already understand. It's more hassle to branch out to new ebooks than it is to find a new pbook that I'd enjoy.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by tompe

I really do not believe that you can read a couple of paragraphs and decide if the book is good or very good or if it is only OK. An OK book is also a book that fall within you tastes.

it takes a modern agent/editor/reviewer 3 pages (if that) to decide on whether a book is worth publishing (the First 3 Pages is a very famous book about this very process and why writers should not ignore it). I simply take this to any work that I'm deciding upon and reduce it. Read the first 3 paragraphs of any book and you'll have a really good idea of what's coming up and whether that's something you'll really want to continue with. If it's taking you a 100 pages to make a decision on whether you like a book or not, then maybe you do need to be told what to read by the gatekeepers.

Here are the opening paragraphs from two traditionally published books, to make my position much clearer (any choices I make here, can easily be transferred to the independently published)


It was a pleasure to burn.

~

Death, in this forsaken place, could come in many forms. Geologist Charles Brophy had endured the savage splendour of this terrain and yet nothing could prepare him for a fate as barbarous and unnatural as the one about to befall him.

~

Now, one of these is quite clearly brilliant and compelling, while the other is a bunch of old tosh and I wouldn't read beyond that first paragraph. Can you guess which? Anyone with half a brain can, and it's definitely not the second quoted paragraph. I wouldn't even need a page to discern that the second example belongs to a story so bereft of imagination and anything of worth that to continue would be to my reading as a full frontal lobotomy would be to my emotions.

I am waiting for better gatekeepers to appear to replace publishers. Independent publishers can have an OK reputation and can work as a filter. An independent publisher is not the same as a self publisher.

Again, I don't understand why you are so reliant on the opinions of the publishers (whose bottom line is money making, lets not forget. They no more care about fiction than McDonalds do about gourmet cooking). Can't you make those decisions for yourself? Do you need someone else to assign value to a cultural product before you feel safe enough to try it for yourself?

The internet erases the line between self and independent, it's all one and the same. If you're waiting for some authoritative body to come along and wave a magic wand so you can feel secure that your fictional choices are restricted only to those sanctioned by them, then you're out of luck. Doomsday, or the day Dan Brown writes a compelling story, might come first.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It's more hassle to branch out to new ebooks than it is to find a new pbook that I'd enjoy.

I don't know what your methodology is, but for me, ebooks are a godsend.

Browse Feedbooks, read blurb. Download PDF (opens immediately in Evince), read first couple of paragraphs. If I like it, I then download the epub for later reading. If it's Gutenberg, I'll download the txt and read the first couple paragraphs, pages. If it's Waterstones then I'm paying for the book and I'm there because it's something I want, or has already been recommended and I'm taking a chance.

And none of this involves me going to a bookstore, which would take hours.

So far this year, through Feedbooks alone, I've been introduced to:

Kelly Link, Benjamin Rosenblum, Small Stories, Nick Name, Moxie Mezcal (brand new find, only today). The traditional publishing industry has very little to offer me that I can't find with the independents or what some would so derisively call "self-published".

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by lilac_jive

One man's trash is one man's treasure

This goes the same for pbooks, in my opinion. There's a lot of crap books out there that top the bestseller list. There's a lot of junk ebooks out there, sure, but I wade through them by seeing recommendations on here, or checking them out on goodreads.

+1 Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying as well. In the print industry there were/are higher boundaries to self-publishing than on the web/electronically. And yes there is a lot of krap published by the name publishers as well. It really a matter of finding the recommendation sources or publishers or authors that you can trust for a good read.

Oh and on the topic of reading the first few paragraphs to determine if it's for you or not, certainly that is appropriate but that is no guarantee that it well be a good investment of your time -- particularly for a novel that will take a substantial amount of that precious time -- when the writer and publisher know this is the case. I've seen many a book that starts off excellent but totally peters out and is full of padding sometimes all the way to the end. Those are the ones I end up throwing across the room for wasting my time! (no I'm not going to throw my 505 ).

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

+1 Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying as well. In the print industry there were/are higher boundaries to self-publishing than on the web/electronically. And yes there is a lot of krap published by the name publishers as well. It really a matter of finding the recommendation sources or publishers or authors that you can trust for a good read.

Oh and on the topic of reading the first few paragraphs to determine if it's for you or not, certainly that is appropriate but that is no guarantee that it well be a good investment of your time -- particularly for a novel that will take a substantial amount of that precious time -- when the writer and publisher know this is the case. I've seen many a book that starts off excellent but totally peters out and is full of padding sometimes all the way to the end. Those are the ones I end up throwing across the room for wasting my time! (no I'm not going to throw my 505 ).

There's never a guarantee, I remember being immensely impressed with the opening of David Guterson's "Our Lady of the Forest" and then giving up on the book about halfway through (in the paper book days), same for the terrible novel "The ice Storm" (which was relatively short). I think what I'm driving at here is that there's crap published across the board, and there's not really anybody who can tell you what is crap and what isn't, that's for you to decide.