The Wheat from the Chaff: Filling the role of The Gatekeeper

[barryem]

I wonder if this isn't a problem more in theory than in fact. I spend a bit of time choosing my next book, usually while nearing the end of my current book, so that by the time I'm finished I have a few books in mind for the next one. I can't recall ever even looking at who published it during this decision process. I don't pick many bad ones.

I scan the reader reviews on Amazon and sometimes on Goodreads and sometimes on Kobo and B&N. I don't let the reviewers pick my books but sometimes I'll let them warn me away from a book. More often I judge by the tone and intelligence of the review than by whether they liked the book. This seems to be pretty helpful.

I also read the online samples at Amazon. The "Look Inside" sample, not the downloadable one. Usually the first few paragraphs tell me a lot.

Sometimes I'll google a book and get a variety of opinions on it, and I'll sometimes search Youtube for reviews.

A lot of the books I choose are from references made in these reviews. Reviewers will often mention other books that I'll look into.

I can't really recall looking at the publisher except in a few instances where I found a badly edited book, usually one that was badly proofed after OCR'ing. I used to proof for Gutenberg and I recognize those mistakes. In most of these cases, maybe all of them, they were done by big publishers. I read a lot of older books and that's who does older books.

I just don't think there's a problem finding good books. I rarely think in terms of avoiding bad books. I think I've begun one book in the past couple of years that was bad enough that I didn't finish it. The guys writing seemed fine and the grammar and spelling were good but the situations just didn't make much sense so I stopped reading it. That book was "The Neon Lawyer" by Victor Methos, published by Thomas & Mercer. I have no idea if they're part of a big publisher.

I have read a few books in the past couple of years that I might not have read if I'd known more what to expect, but none of those were so bad I lament reading them. At worse they were just okay.

I do agree that, at least in principle, having a gatekeeper seems like a good idea. But these days with so many resources available to find good books I'm not sure there's a lot of practical need for someone to cull them and I think there's so many benefits from letting people publish whatever they want that I like things the way they are. Ultimately readers are the only ones qualified pick what we want to read.

Barry

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by barryem

I wonder if this isn't a problem more in theory than in fact. I spend a bit of time choosing my next book, usually while nearing the end of my current book, so that by the time I'm finished I have a few books in mind for the next one. I can't recall ever even looking at who published it during this decision process. I don't pick many bad ones.

I scan the reader reviews on Amazon and sometimes on Goodreads and sometimes on Kobo and B&N. I don't let the reviewers pick my books but sometimes I'll let them warn me away from a book. More often I judge by the tone and intelligence of the review than by whether they liked the book. This seems to be pretty helpful.

I also read the online samples at Amazon. The "Look Inside" sample, not the downloadable one. Usually the first few paragraphs tell me a lot.

Sometimes I'll google a book and get a variety of opinions on it, and I'll sometimes search Youtube for reviews.

A lot of the books I choose are from references made in these reviews. Reviewers will often mention other books that I'll look into.

I can't really recall looking at the publisher except in a few instances where I found a badly edited book, usually one that was badly proofed after OCR'ing. I used to proof for Gutenberg and I recognize those mistakes. In most of these cases, maybe all of them, they were done by big publishers. I read a lot of older books and that's who does older books.

I just don't think there's a problem finding good books. I rarely think in terms of avoiding bad books. I think I've begun one book in the past couple of years that was bad enough that I didn't finish it. The guys writing seemed fine and the grammar and spelling were good but the situations just didn't make much sense so I stopped reading it. That book was "The Neon Lawyer" by Victor Methos, published by Thomas & Mercer. I have no idea if they're part of a big publisher.

I have read a few books in the past couple of years that I might not have read if I'd known more what to expect, but none of those were so bad I lament reading them. At worse they were just okay.

I do agree that, at least in principle, having a gatekeeper seems like a good idea. But these days with so many resources available to find good books I'm not sure there's a lot of practical need for someone to cull them and I think there's so many benefits from letting people publish whatever they want that I like things the way they are. Ultimately readers are the only ones qualified pick what we want to read.

Barry

The biggest set of bad books are in the DIY/Self-help genres. Yes, this includes cookbooks.

[DiapDealer]

Other than my past favorite authors, I rarely know who published (or HOW they published) the books I decide to read. I don't wade in any pools. I hear what people are talking about, I see what people whose opinions I trust are reading on Goodreads. Then if something piques my interest, I check out the premise and make a decision. "Dreck" almost never makes it onto my radar.

I don't need traditional gatekeepers. Reviews, my friends, and normal conversation takes care of that role for me. I don't give the slightest hoot how a book gets to market. If it's up my alley (and it's of sufficient quality) someone will mention it.

I never waded "blind" into traditionally published books before the self-publishing boom, so I fail to see why I (or anyone) would want to do so with KDP titles. Cream rises (and gets talked about).

[ApK]

Originally Posted by barryem

I wonder if this isn't a problem more in theory than in fact.

It's often enough a problem in fact, I assure you. Not insurmountable and sometimes very minor, but real enough to discuss.

I do agree that, at least in principle, having a gatekeeper seems like a good idea. But these days with so many resources available to find good books I'm not sure there's a lot of practical need for someone to cull them and I think there's so many benefits from letting people publish whatever they want that I like things the way they are. Ultimately readers are the only ones qualified pick what we want to read.

Barry

It's those resources I want to hear more about.
Cuz "let anyone publish anything" has resulted, in fact, in just about anyone publishing just about anything, and "readers are the only ones qualified to pick" can be an overwhelming, frustrating and wasteful endeavor.
Some tools, if not a guide, are not counter to the new order.

[PeterT]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Andy,
Are you talking about errors like the following:
Our fist cooking with Mic exercise is going to be what are called Pizza Crackers. Do not feel pressure to make it look great. Look does not matter, only tastes matters.

Then 28 locations later or about 4 pages we get this:
Brink water to a boil in the microwave.
4 sentences later:
You will need to interrupted the cooking every 3 minutes to stir the mac and cheese.

I haven't read any farther/further.

Notice there are no misspelled words so the "author" probably ran it through just spell check.

Oh and this one was a book that had a publisher name. But I figure it is rather like some other s-p's. The author is the publisher.

I had to find this masterpiece --> https://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Mic-E...oking+With+Mic

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by PeterT

I had to find this masterpiece --> https://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Mic-E...oking+With+Mic

Wrong masterpiece.
It was this one.
https://www.amazon.com/Microwave-Coo...dp/B071D8B745/

Same author: same book: different title and ASIN.

[darryl]

Cooking, self-help etc. are often the chosen tools of Amazon scammers. I'd imagine it's not too hard to exclude the really bad ones.

As for the real dreck in self-published books? You are not picking at random. They can be easily eliminated as possible choices and are by many. I really see this as a storm in a teacup.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by darryl

As for the real dreck in self-published books? You are not picking at random. They can be easily eliminated as possible choices and are by many.

'splain how.

I really see this as a storm in a teacup.

Exactly! That makes a mess and ruins a nice relaxing cup of tea. I'd like to prevent storms in my tea cups.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ApK

'splain how.


Exactly! That makes a mess and ruins a nice relaxing cup of tea. I'd like to prevent storms in my tea cups.

"Thank you and congratulations for downloading this ebook. "
That is a dead give away to a scamlet.
Luckily that is usually the first words in a bad book.
Or you get backwards English.
Though I have to admit sometimes the word choice is hilarious.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by ApK

'splain how.

I outlined how I picked my ebooks in the earlier thread I linked to, and others outlined their methods. You want to confine this thread to discussion of "basic editorial and grammatical gatekeeping". This is a very low bar to begin with. Yes, anecdotally there are and logically one would expect a not insignificant number of self-published books which do not meet even this bar. Fortunately unless you are picking at random you will never encounter most of these. Depending on the method you use to pick, most are not in the genres or type of books you like, or are not prominent enough to be "discovered" by you or are not recommended by anyone you are inclined to rely upon. Others you may not be interested after reading a synopsis. Of the few that remain on your radar, I suggest that reading a sample will eliminate the vast majority. With the bar set this low, I doubt the books which constitute illegible, incoherent garbage will require reading more than a paragraph or two to identify. This does not of course mean that they will be immortal works of prose nor that you will enjoy them. But that is outside what you want to discuss in this thread.

And if you find that you can't do this, by all means stick to the traditionally published books.

[darryl]

Double post omitted.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by darryl

You want to confine this thread to discussion of "basic editorial and grammatical gatekeeping". This is a very low bar to begin with. ...
...
Fortunately unless you are picking at random you will never encounter most of these. Depending on the method you use to pick, most are not in the genres or type of books you like, or are not prominent enough to be "discovered" by you....

Sadly, I have found this not to be true.
It's probably not a surprise that this thread was prompted by my wading through garbage when I tried to search for some new books in genres and categories I like. (I happened to be looking for business books today, but it's happened with sf too.).

or are not recommended by anyone you are inclined to rely upon.

That does seem to be among the most popular filters available, according to the posts here.
Perhaps the preferred reviewer/recommender the new gatekeeper. Wonder how they found the book?

I am indeed talking about a low bar here, but i recognize that a recommendation of good books probably comes with the automatic bonus of them being non-jibberish, so that's a good solution if you have a trusted recommender.

[JSWolf]

One thing I avoid is a self-published book where the cover looks like Photoshop barfed.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

One thing I avoid is a self-published book where the cover looks like Photoshop barfed.

Are you sure barfed is the correct word?

[darryl]

Originally Posted by ApK

Sadly, I have found this not to be true.
It's probably not a surprise that this thread was prompted by my wading through garbage when I tried to search for some new books in genres and categories I like. (I happened to be looking for business books today, but it's happened with sf too.).

It seems to me that our experiences have been very different. I have found some self-published books I didn't enjoy or finish, but only one that I thought was real drivel in the sense you describe. Surprisingly enough this one was quite popular and the author had written a number of other pieces of similar drivel which also sold well. I have no idea why. Our own different experiences could be for any number of reasons. I'm not surprised that you had this problem with business books. As a general rule I have found non-fiction is not yet that strong a category for Indies. Business, self-help etc tend to attract a lot of self-styled gurus specialising in click-bait headlines attracting web traffic to often barely literate blog posts or web pages. Little wonder their books are often just more of the same. I am surprised you are having trouble finding good Indie science fiction. I have discovered a number of Indie authors of science fiction whose books I now read regularly through purchase or KU.

Originally Posted by ApK

That does seem to be among the most popular filters available, according to the posts here.
Perhaps the preferred reviewer/recommender the new gatekeeper. Wonder how they found the book?

At the risk of seeming a bit pedantic, I don't think the word "gatekeeper" is accurate here. The gates are well and truly breached and the walls have crumbled. Anyone of a mind to can now publish and does. No one can keep them out. The gatekeepers whose decisions meant a book or author would never even be published (or perhaps only published through a vanity press) and would therefore effectively not be available, are gone, and I don't miss them. There are many now seeking to step in and offer some of the services previously provided by gatekeepers, including curator-ship, but now on the basis of readers voluntarily using their services. Not all are strictly above board. Many of these are in fact marketing services with vested interests. But participation is up to the reader. And unlikely successes happen, of worthy books and otherwise.

Originally Posted by ApK

I am indeed talking about a low bar here, but i recognize that a recommendation of good books probably comes with the automatic bonus of them being non-jibberish, so that's a good solution if you have a trusted recommender.

This is indeed a problem. The algorithms used by Amazon, Kobo and others are far from perfect. Many of the newsletter/email type services are paid promotions. Reviews are only valuable if the reviewer shares your tastes. I do believe, however, that with such a low bar a very brief read of a sample, particularly a random one, will eliminate all but a small number of such books from contention.