Improve ebooks - fiction & non-fiction

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by tomfyhr

To some extent, mixed media, where different methods of communication are integrated, already exists in some form. One way is via story-driven video games, which combine watching, hearing and experiencing to entertain the player. Another way is via websites, whose layouts may combine visuals, words and audio to communicate. A third way is via magazine layouts and graphic novels (comic books), which combines pictures and words.

Hence why there is no need for it in fiction/non-fiction text ebooks: it already exists elsewhere (as you so helpfully keep pointing out)--on mobile and pc platforms.

Originally Posted by tomfyhr

The concept of having mixed media is a concept that has been present since post-modernism and is a post-modern form of expression, as exemplifed by Ulysses which really transcends the barrier in terms of expression. Comic books is a post-modern form of expression, hence its mixture of pictures, words and onomatopeia. As some may already be aware, post-modernism sought to break the boundaries of expression and as a result its content became very experimental. The thoughts introduced in post-modernism never died out and are still relevant and present culturally.

Yes. Again. such things already exist: digitally and in print. There's no need for it to be sold as an "ebook" for consumers to buy in.

Originally Posted by tomfyhr

Therefore, it appears that there already is some cultural acceptance of mixed media, however that seems not have surfaced to the realm of ebooks.

Yes. Digital, mixed-media applications already exist (and can be greatly expanded upon). There's just no need to market them as "books" to be "read" by people who don't like books or find reading boring. I'm not going to market an orange as an apple for people who don't dig apples. I'm going to sell them an orange.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by darryl

On the contrary, epub and other formats allow many of these things.

EPUB is a web page inside a ZIP archive. Even MOBI/Kindle formats has more smart ebook mojo in them. A Web page is just what it is: an imperfect rendering of a printed page.

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by tomfyhr

To some extent, mixed media, where different methods of communication are integrated, already exists in some form. One way is via story-driven video games, which combine watching, hearing and experiencing to entertain the player. Another way is via websites, whose layouts may combine visuals, words and audio to communicate. A third way is via magazine layouts and graphic novels (comic books), which combines pictures and words.

To some extent, perhaps. But the fact that magazines are failing, and video games seem to be as big a gamble as a blockbuster movies where the costs are FAR in excess of the story telling requirements, tells me that solid formats and design ideas are still very much in the formative stage.

Our culture simply hasn't figured out what the multi-media 'language' should be like, and as a result, we are falling back on these older technologies language expectations as a guide. Which means sometimes it's successful and sometimes it is not. It seems to depend on the targeted audience and what their expectations are. We still don't have a common cultural set of 'language' expectations.

It will come in time, but I personally doubt these new media types will be called 'eBooks'.

[tomfyhr]

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

Our culture simply hasn't figured out what the multi-media 'language' should be like, and as a result, we are falling back on these older technologies language expectations as a guide.

That would be rather a revert back to the antiquity, where music (audio), drama (storytelling) and philsophy were the central aspects and is still present in our culture.

One major advancement since the antiquity and early indicators of mixed media came in the illuminated manuscripts during the Middle-Ages and Renaissance, with artistic fonts, ornaments and illustrations. Is that the future of the ebook?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by tomfyhr

Is that the future of the ebook?

Why does the future of the ebook NEED to evolve at all? Why can't it just remain as it is: an electronic representation of an author's written words?

NOTE: I'm not talking about new features, or the various bells and whistles that are introduced by the hardware/software used to render those ebooks. Evolution there is expected.

But the ebook itself (I've long ago stopped differentiating between electronic books and printed books--they're both just "books" to me) will probably remain "just a book" (though rendered electronically) for the foreseeable future. If not beyond.

Let interactive, multimedia-rich presentations inhabit their own new realm. There's plenty of space for the "Not a Book" you're describing to carve out its own niche. They don't need to be called something they're not.

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Why does the future of the ebook NEED to evolve at all? Why can't it just remain as it is: an electronic representation of an author's written words?

NOTE: I'm not talking about new features, or the various bells and whistles that are introduced by the hardware/software used to render those ebooks. Evolution there is expected.

But the ebook itself (I've long ago stopped differentiating between electronic books and printed books--they're both just "books" to me) will probably remain "just a book" (though rendered electronically) for the foreseeable future. If not beyond.

Let interactive, multimedia-rich presentations inhabit their own new realm. There's plenty of space for the "Not a Book" you're describing to carve out its own niche. They don't need to be called something they're not.

I agree whole heartedly. Certainly, the files created by Microsoft "Sway" pretty much feel like a new medium to me.

The inclusion of text, still photos, videos, the internet, and other digitized intellectual property into a "Sway" file, simply doesn't feel like an eBook. Though these are not internet graphics files, they can be posted to the internet and shared in other conventional ways. These things walk multiple lines somewhere between a slide show, videos, text, a web page, and an Adobe Flash file.

Although "Sway" can produce interesting and compelling multimedia displays, it is still pretty primitive in the sense that people are still playing around with it and are unsure how to use it, when, and who the audience should be. It is clearly not what it, and its inevitable competitors, will eventually become.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Why does the future of the ebook NEED to evolve at all? Why can't it just remain as it is: an electronic representation of an author's written words?

NOTE: I'm not talking about new features, or the various bells and whistles that are introduced by the hardware/software used to render those ebooks. Evolution there is expected.

But the ebook itself (I've long ago stopped differentiating between electronic books and printed books--they're both just "books" to me) will probably remain "just a book" (though rendered electronically) for the foreseeable future. If not beyond.

Let interactive, multimedia-rich presentations inhabit their own new realm. There's plenty of space for the "Not a Book" you're describing to carve out its own niche. They don't need to be called something they're not.

I agree. There's nothing wrong with someone creating new kinds of media, but please let me read books as is.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

EPUB is a web page inside a ZIP archive. Even MOBI/Kindle formats has more smart ebook mojo in them. A Web page is just what it is: an imperfect rendering of a printed page.

Can you send me a kilo of what you've been smoking? I think it would go over great at my next end of the 60's themed party. Mobi is an old format that has much fewer features than epub 2. AZW3 is closer to epub with a few Amazon extensions mostly to allow pixel sized graphics for mobi and scaleable graphics for KF8. You have noticed that using the KindleUnpacker, one of the options is to extract an epub from a KF8 format?

[FizzyWater]

Occasionally when I'm reading - either fiction or non-fiction - that mentions a historical event, it might raise enough curiosity to do a quick web search. Might it be useful, especially in non-fiction, to include links? Maybe. But I definitely would NOT want them to be forced, or for the book to be limited in content and expecting me to learn by clicking those links.

I generally prefer reading the detail myself, and choosing what I want to research.

And with the Kindle's ability to use dictionary/Wikipedia search, I generally have access to enough to be satisfied.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by FizzyWater

Occasionally when I'm reading - either fiction or non-fiction - that mentions a historical event, it might raise enough curiosity to do a quick web search. Might it be useful, especially in non-fiction, to include links? Maybe. But I definitely would NOT want them to be forced, or for the book to be limited in content and expecting me to learn by clicking those links.

I generally prefer reading the detail myself, and choosing what I want to research.

And with the Kindle's ability to use dictionary/Wikipedia search, I generally have access to enough to be satisfied.

The problem with including links is that they are transitory. Within a few years, half may no longer work, and it would get really annoying being teased with information that doesn't appear. Searching for yourself at the time of reading is probably the best option.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Mobi is an old format that has much fewer features than epub 2.

Yet it does support the random access with 4KB granularity, and indices with morphology support. None of those are in EPUB 2 or 3.

You have noticed that using the KindleUnpacker, one of the options is to extract an epub from a KF8 format?

...if the file was converted from EPUB in the first place, and stored inside.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

But the ebook itself (I've long ago stopped differentiating between electronic books and printed books--they're both just "books" to me) will probably remain "just a book"

There are books and books. The English editions of The Lord of the Rings, for example, include copious author's reference materials and a third-party index. The properly applied e-book metadata and new technologies would allow that and even more for any book, at minimal cost.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

There are books and books. The English editions of The Lord of the Rings, for example, include copious author's reference materials and a third-party index. The properly applied e-book metadata and new technologies would allow that and even more for any book, at minimal cost.

Don't need "new technologies" to allow for indexes and linked-in reference materials. That ability is already there--in epub AND Kindlebooks. No evolution necessary. But they have nothing to do with the interactive, multi-media experience the OP is championing to encourage people to who don't want (or don't like) to read to "read." I'd like footnotes to work more seamlessly, myself. One doesn't need to alter the notion of "book" to make that happen.

And there is no such thing as "properly applied" ebook metadata. Never has been; never will be. It's a pipe dream.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Yet it does support the random access with 4KB granularity, and indices with morphology support. None of those are in EPUB 2 or 3.

The 4K block size is a remnant from PalmDoc where text was stored in 4096 byte blocks. If you find this functionality important enough to mention, supplying an example where this would be more useful than an index or searching should be simple enough. As for the indices with morphology support? A nice buzz phrase. I seem to have seen several scholarly epub and pdf ebooks with indices offering similar functionality.

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

...if the file was converted from EPUB in the first place, and stored inside.

Oddly, in the 278 books I've purchased from Amazon in the last couple of years, the only one that was not unpackable to epub was an AZW wrapper around a PDF. Given that several of the books showed sources such as docx and rtf, I would suspect that either AZW3 is a lot closer to epub than most people assume or that Amazon converts to epub on the way to generating an AZW3.

[richough3]

I think an evolution of the Choose Your Own Adventure type of eBooks would be nice on an epic novel scale as I find the CYOA stories to be a bit short. You could have options like the choice to select to follow the story of one of multiple characters. And of course, you would still have the choice of certain paths and even change which character you follow at certain plot points. There would also be the potential choice of different endings or just have different paths to get to the same ending. For people who don't want to make choices and just want to read, they could chose a standard narrative so it's like a regular book.