Can't eBooks be beautiful if they're not designed?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

You may not consciously buy a book because of the cover, in fact I'd wager this is actually true for the majority of books that are purchased, but that cover does have some affect on you. It may just be as simple as catching your eye, or a neat juxtaposition of images and the text..

Quite simply put: no (in my case, at least). I don't browse covers, so there's nothing to "catch my eye." I've usually made the decision to buy something (based on author, or recommendation, or conversation) long before I get near a picture. Besides, the thumbnail cover art is too small for me to make anything out at most retailers anyway. So the art is definitely not something that draws me in, and I find them quite easy to ignore, actually.

Most times I don't even give the cover art a thought until AFTER I've downloaded a book. So while I can appreciate the fact that many people want their experience to be a universal truth when it come to packaging, it's simply not true of all readers.

Coverart certainly had an effect on me when browsing stacks of physical, front-facing books at a B&M store, but ebooks have released me from worrying about that nonsense.

[Doonge]

@pdurrant

Gotcha for the poetry (it should be fixed one day when ::first-line works), and perhaps the caption thing (in what way is it unreliable?).

But I am stuck with your raised capital thing.

Try this for a raised capital:

font-size: 3em;
line-height: 0.3333em;

or this

font-size: 4em;
line-height: 0.25em;

or whatever (line-height is simply the inverse of font-size, normally line-height is 1.2 the font size, so it will be less than regular line-height, so it should not mess with regular line-height?).


Doesn't it work? Only adjustement I can think of is making sure your top-margin is OK (you don't want the raised capital to collide with a top element, depends what it is - but usually drop cap are for the first paragraph of a chapter, so you only need to properly space it from the chapter title...), and perhaps adjusting the space between the raised capital and the following letter (but that's impossible to do it elegantly as it's font specific, and it is a minor problem: it's the only drop cap type I'd allow myself to do in a "generic" manner)

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Quite simply put: no (in my case, at least). I don't browse covers, so there's nothing to "catch my eye." I've usually made the decision to buy something (based on author, or recommendation, or conversation) long before I get near a picture. Besides, the thumbnail covert art is too small for me to make anything out at most retailers anyway. So the art is definitely not something that draws me in, and I find them quite easy to ignore, actually.

Most times I don't even give the cover art a thought until AFTER I've downloaded a book. So while I can appreciate the fact that many people want their experience to be a universal truth when it come to packaging, it's simply not true of all readers.

Coverart certainly had an effect on me when browsing stacks of physical, front-facing books at a B&M store, but ebooks have released me from worrying about that nonsense.

Buying based on suggestion would just pass the cover art effect on to those making the suggestion. At some level it has had an effect on the purchase of the book. Buying from a known author just pushes the effect back to the point of that introduction, unless the initial book of that author was a suggestion in which case it's back to the person making the suggestion.

Again -consciously- you aren't thinking of the cover. And while the thumbnail may not be much of an image, in your case it doesn't need to be since you're buying based off the suggestion of others who have read the book, and thus seen the cover, or because of author in which case you've seen their previous books covers. Now if you were browsing ebooks and not using either the suggestion of others or authors you had read and enjoyed to guide your search, and disabled image display that would be a way to ensure you were not directly influenced. But there is still an indirect influence of the book being published, the spot it gets in search results, etc. are all influenced by the sellability of the book, and publishers do put stock in the coverart to have an influence.

I appreciate that we like to think we are above being influenced, however the publishing industry knows that isn't true.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3354504.html

http://thebooksmugglers.com/2010/04/...y-results.html

http://www.creativindie.com/8-cover-...-buying-books/

http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2014/...ure-explained/

I could go on, but it's a bit OT for the thread.

[Cinisajoy]

On a book's layout.
I bought an ereader so I could adjust the font. I also don't care about small caps and stuff like that.

Now to any authors that do their own books: if you use a fixed font, I will remember you and not in a good way. If you think you must SCREAM your opening either in capital letters or a huge font, I will remember you and not in a good way. If you are making a point, make sure it is in bold black not light light gray. If I can't see it, it must not be important.
I know you think your book is special, but think of it this way, my time and money are special to me. So please think of your audience. If you want to make money at this, make sure your book is readable.
Of course Rodney Dangerfield is excluded from the above statement.

Just my 2 cents from someone that takes a chance on new authors.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Quite simply put: no (in my case, at least). I don't browse covers, so there's nothing to "catch my eye." I've usually made the decision to buy something (based on author, or recommendation, or conversation) long before I get near a picture. Besides, the thumbnail cover art is too small for me to make anything out at most retailers anyway. So the art is definitely not something that draws me in, and I find them quite easy to ignore, actually.

Most times I don't even give the cover art a thought until AFTER I've downloaded a book. So while I can appreciate the fact that many people want their experience to be a universal truth when it come to packaging, it's simply not true of all readers.

Coverart certainly had an effect on me when browsing stacks of physical, front-facing books at a B&M store, but ebooks have released me from worrying about that nonsense.

I would bet that we have many similar covers in our collections. Pretty much plain with just the title and author on the spine.

[crossi]

Other than nice covers that you don't see for the most part with ebooks, competent construction for TOCs, ect. there is little that I feel the need of while reading ebooks.

A possible exception would be poetry where the structure adds to the experience. I haven't downloaded any books of poetry so I don't know how well the structure translates to ebook format.

Other than that I don't really know what the OP means by "beautiful" books.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

I appreciate that we like to think we are above being influenced, however the publishing industry knows that isn't true.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3354504.html

http://thebooksmugglers.com/2010/04/...y-results.html

http://www.creativindie.com/8-cover-...-buying-books/

http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2014/...ure-explained/

I could go on, but it's a bit OT for the thread.

I appreciate that you've discovered that the effect cover images has on readers/sales as a whole is quantifiable and proves that cover images are relevant to that same whole. However ... none of it proves that there aren't individuals who don't fall into the average/majority category that their research shows they need to focus on.

The publishing industry is free to think they influence me with covers (as are you), because I know differently. I'm not "above" anything, I just don't need/want/care about cover art. I find it pointless. It's that simple. I'm not that unique, so I assume there are some others who fall outside the target demographic as well.

From an author/publisher (seller) standpoint: of COURSE covers matter. No one with a brain in their head would argue the point. From an individual reader perspective, however, things are entirely different. They may matter to many--even most. But it's silly to think your articles prove that no one could possibly be immune to their influence.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Doonge

@pdurrant
But I am stuck with your raised capital thing.

Try this for a raised capital:

font-size: 3em;
line-height: 0.3333em;

Once again, I was not posting asking for solutions.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Buying based on suggestion would just pass the cover art effect on to those making the suggestion. At some level it has had an effect on the purchase of the book. Buying from a known author just pushes the effect back to the point of that introduction, unless the initial book of that author was a suggestion in which case it's back to the person making the suggestion.

Again -consciously- you aren't thinking of the cover. And while the thumbnail may not be much of an image, in your case it doesn't need to be since you're buying based off the suggestion of others who have read the book, and thus seen the cover, or because of author in which case you've seen their previous books covers. Now if you were browsing ebooks and not using either the suggestion of others or authors you had read and enjoyed to guide your search, and disabled image display that would be a way to ensure you were not directly influenced. But there is still an indirect influence of the book being published, the spot it gets in search results, etc. are all influenced by the sellability of the book, and publishers do put stock in the coverart to have an influence.

I appreciate that we like to think we are above being influenced, however the publishing industry knows that isn't true.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3354504.html

http://thebooksmugglers.com/2010/04/...y-results.html

http://www.creativindie.com/8-cover-...-buying-books/

http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2014/...ure-explained/

I could go on, but it's a bit OT for the thread.

I just went through the last 10 books I bought from looking at my spreadsheet. The only one that a cover that I remembered anything about was a negative reaction. In other words, I remember looking at the title when I was buying it and thinking that it was stupid. (the cover was a cartoon, and the book was a mystery.) In other words, I bought the cover even though I hated the cover. I bought the book because it was recommended as being a good book. I looked at the description, I checked out the "look inside" to make sure that it was something I might be interested in, and I bought it...despite thinking it had a stupid cover. For the other 9 books, I couldn't tell you what the cover was if my life depended on it. I don't care. I don't look at covers on my reader, I don't look at covers when I'm looking for books. As DiapDealer said...the articles you linked to are probably true for the population as a whole. They are NOT true for everyone, and certainly not true for me.

In any case, if the articles were true about the importance of a cover, then how would any of these books ever have sold? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BVC1SSE?psc=1

Shari

[Doonge]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Once again, I was not posting asking for solutions.

OK, but I'm asking how you know things? I'm supposing you're familiar with this solution and you think it has flaws which allow you to say raised capitals can't be reliably done. Would you kindly share your experience?

I'm using this "solution" myself, but if you can pin point how it's unreliable I might drop entirely the idea of using it and I would be happy knowing more.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I appreciate that you've discovered that the effect cover images has on readers/sales as a whole is quantifiable and proves that cover images are relevant to that same whole. However ... none of it proves that there aren't individuals who don't fall into the average/majority category that their research shows they need to focus on.

If you stay inside your house all days, then perhaps you're not getting a tan, but the sun has an effect regardless, even on you, if you were to step outside.

I don't believe you're immune to visual stimuli. And you surely have things you hold dear, whose representation trigger your interest. Even if you try to explain your logical mind has absolute power over you, that since you think covers are pointless then looking at them does nothing to you, we know it isn't so.

Perhaps your purchasing method is very good and very healthy, as you can't judge a book by it's cover, but we can't help it and we try to compensate. The very act of compensation is you being affected by covers anyway.

To say otherwise would be like saying that you don't judge people by their look.

If you can figure yourself loving a serie, and one day in the future wandering off and seeing a cover whose art you are familiar with, displayed behind a window in the streets, you stop: it's the latest book of that serie, released with a 10 years gap (the author need money and wrote a new one late). This will be you being influenced by a consistently designed cover.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Doonge

To say otherwise would be like saying that you don't judge people by their look.

And...?

If you can figure yourself loving a serie, and one day in the future wandering off and seeing a cover whose art you are familiar with, displayed behind a window in the streets, you stop: it's the latest book of that serie, released with a 10 years gap (the author need money and wrote a new one late). This will be you being influenced by a consistently designed cover.

Not a single bookstore on my streets.

I honestly don't understand the pushback against my claim. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong for being influenced by covers, I'm saying my process of acquiring books to read bypasses images for the most part. What's so hard to believe about that? I'm not immune to visual stimuli, I just don't SEE bookcovers (especially not before I buy them). Because I don't want to.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

And...?


Not a single bookstore on my streets.

I honestly don't understand the pushback against my claim. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong for being influenced by covers, I'm saying my process of acquiring books to read, bypasses images for the most part. What's so hard to believe about that? I'm not immune to visual stimuli, I just don't SEE bookcovers (especially not before I buy them). Because I don't want to.

This in a nut shell.
Not ALL people are susceptible to visual stuff. I am like you. I don't particularly notice covers. I also don't get the why some people have a hard time with what others do or don't do.
If one judges by looks, more power to them.
If one doesn't judge by looks, more power to them.
What one does usually doesn't affect the other.
Except maybe in the case of senior discounts. If one thinks my gray hair makes me 55 or 60, I won't embarrass the one by correcting. I will just smile and say thank you.

[Doonge]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

And...?


Not a single bookstore on my streets.

I honestly don't understand the pushback against my claim. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong for being influenced by covers, I'm saying my process of acquiring books to read, bypasses images for the most part. What's so hard to believe about that? I'm not immune to visual stimuli, I just don't SEE bookcovers (especially not before I buy them). Because I don't want to.

And you do judge people according to their look. You just usually don't act on it, since you're probably a normal person. And you also probably try to compensate.


I fully believe you when you say you have adopted a purchase method which make you not look at covers. You're right when you say, somehow, that you are not influenced by them because you don't look at them. But it's kind of a stupid statement. I did compare your situation to someone who avoids the sun and is white like a vampire.

Another way to say what you want to say would be: I am influenced by book covers, but I try my best not to look at them.

I see you are trying to explain there's no bookstore in your vicinity, but it's misguided to go this path. Are you confidently saying you will never in your life be travelling? Or that you currently don't ever travel? You don't ever browse internet randomly, your gaze never set its focus on any cover EVER? This is a ridiculous route. Even then, if avoiding book covers dictate that much your life, then it's particulary true for you that covers influence you.

Most people try to make good purchase, and most people try to compensate for how cover influence them (because ultimately they want to buy good books). Everyone is tampering how much the covers affects them, because experience has told them that it's not 100% reliable (or they are watching their budget, whatever).

Doesn't change the fact the game is there.

You are trying your best not to look at covers in order not to be influenced by them. Good for you. The general statement "covers influence you" still holds true. The same way "The sun makes you tan".

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Doonge

I see you are trying to explain there's no bookstore in your vicinity, but it's misguided to go this path. Are you confidently saying you will never in your life be travelling? Or that you currently don't ever travel? You don't ever browse internet randomly, your gaze never set its focus on any cover EVER? This is a ridiculous route. Even then, if avoiding book covers dictate that much your life, then it's particulary true for you that covers influence you.

Ridiculous is putting my claim through that kind of extreme scrutiny to prove me "wrong."

Originally Posted by Doonge

Doesn't change the fact the game is there.

Never claimed the game wasn't there. Just that I'm not an active player.

Originally Posted by Doonge

You are trying your best not to look at covers in order not to be influenced by them.

Nope. I'm trying to my best (and it's not at all difficult for me) to not look at covers primarily because I don't see the point of cover art on fiction. I don't need/want it. I don't display it, I don't cherish it, I don't choose (or decline) books because of it. I would rather it not be there. That I might occasionally "SEE" a cover in my forays into book-buying doesn't change any of that.

Originally Posted by Doonge

Good for you.

Thanks. Was that so hard? Congratulations to you too, for apparently using covers to do your book browsing.

Originally Posted by Doonge

The general statement "covers influence you" still holds true. The same way "The sun makes you tan".

OK. How's this then: when I deign to notice cover-art ... it influences me (as looking at any visual artwork would "influence" me). Just not in a buy/not buy way.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Doonge

I'm using this "solution" myself, but if you can pin point how it's unreliable I might drop entirely the idea of using it and I would be happy knowing more.

What happens when the user changes the default line spacing on their reader to be bigger or smaller than the default?