Giving away or lending an Ebook - Page 2

Format C: · 09-11-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stustaff

I would quite happily send anyone on here a paperback I would otherwise throw away so they could have a read or even give it to a charity so they can sell it.

What happens now Ebooks are introduced to the mix?

Readers are called "pirates", "thieves" and "criminals". Sometimes "customers" and "consumers", if they behave properly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by stustaff

Can I send you a legally purchased DRM free ebook to read?

If you want to spend 4 years in jail, yes, you can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stustaff

Can I lend it my wife to put on her reader If i purchased it?

If you purchsed it from Mobipocket, you can (they, in their infinite generosity, let you put the book onto up to five devices). With other providers, it can be different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stustaff

Can I put it on disc and give it to a charity shop to resell?

No. You can't even dream of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stustaff

Can I sell a disc with them on at a market stall?

That's worse than selling drugs at school!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by stustaff

thoughts?

Personally I think all of the above are fine with a paperback and are done all of the time so surely it would be ok to do the same with an Ebook? why not?

It's not "ok" with paperbacks.
It's simply impossible to enforce a law who forbid it all.
If RFIDs will make it feasible, public libraries will be called "prates", like P2Ps.

Ebook technology permit a heavy limitation on usage, it's easier to enforce (with the ISP cooperation) so it's widely used.

norg1 · 11-13-2009, 04:23 PM

The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book.......I suppose if someone wanted to make copies of their pbook and sell copies.........but again..not the same thing...one would need a publishing house type setup to get "retail quality" pbook copies....the ebook...all one needs to do is..well, copy it.....then it is the same quality as the original....that`s the rub now isn`t it?

As long as the human race is capable of deceptive activities, there will always be a need for protective practices..........

Those who abuse the system are the reason that those who do not, suffer under ever gowing rules and restrictions....a good place to start if anyone ever felt the need to call something evil........

calvin-c · 11-13-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

You can in most countries legally copy the paper book and then lend the paper book to a friend.

Not in any country that *I* know of.
There are 2 legal issues with eBooks that generally aren't faced with pBooks. Other than that, your legal rights are the same with both.

1) The license. As someone pointed out, there has been no definitive decision as to whether or not violating the license on an eBook carries any legal penalty. 2) It's also undecided as to whether stripping DRM is a legal violation.

In the case of selling a device with eBooks loaded, DRM or not, #2 wouldn't apply. I'm certain selling the device with books on it wouldn't violate copyright (provided you didn't keep copies of the books), so all that's left is #1. I doubt if a publisher would pursue that, and even if they did I think it's likely that it would be ruled legal.

CleverClothe · 11-13-2009, 05:04 PM

Zombie thread is smelly.

pdurrant · 11-13-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norg1

The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book

Ummm... No.

Hellmark · 11-13-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norg1

The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book

I've not ever heard that argument, even from those who make and use DRM. DRM is in place to prevent someone getting a copy for free.

tompe · 11-13-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I've not ever heard that argument, even from those who make and use DRM. DRM is in place to prevent someone getting a copy for free.

I believe that is wrong to. DRM exists because of its lock in effect.

calvin-c · 11-13-2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I believe that is wrong to. DRM exists because of its lock in effect.

Lock in to what?
AFAIK the main effect of DRM is making it difficult to convert ebooks to a different format. Of course I don't use a format-locked device, I use one on which I can load a program to read whatever format I prefer (well....there's a few formats for which I've yet to find a program that works on my handheld, but if I wanted to badly enough I'm sure I could write my own, it's just usually easier to find a program to strip the DRM & convert the book).

HansTWN · 11-13-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I believe that is wrong to. DRM exists because of its lock in effect.

That may be true for Sony LRX and Amazon. But for epub?

HarryT · 11-14-2009, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HansTWN

That may be true for Sony LRX and Amazon. But for epub?

Unfortunately the ePub standards committee missed the boat on this one. There is no "standard" for ePub DRM. All currently-available devices use Adobe's DRM mechanism for ePub, but soon we'll have a different DRM mechanism for the B&N nook, and it's conceivable that in a few years we'll have half a dozen different and incompatible DRM systems, all of which will perfectly correctly be able to call themselves "ePub".

tompe · 11-14-2009, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvin-c

Lock in to what?

Amazon for example.

DawnFalcon · 11-14-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norg1

The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book

No, it's there to make sure that the companies get their restrictions on the ebook's usage enforced. This is largely ineffective against people unwilling to jump through hoops (they'll go to the darknet), unwilling to abide by the restrictions (they'll crack the DRM) and will simply cause problems for the rest of your customers and reduce your customer base to those willing to put up with that or crack the DRM.

saoir · 01-13-2011, 12:50 PM

A lot of nonsense is being written here about it being illegal to sell or lend eBooks.

Firstly under the law in the UK and US it is not the case that sellers can just sit back and add in any old conditions into their TOS and have them enforced by the law. It just doesn't work that way. And no court has yet made a definitive judgement on the case of these conditions of sale and eBooks. Otherwise Ford could include conditions about only driving on specific quality roads, or only allowing four people in the car. What nonsense.

Secondly Amazon and other sites use a "BUY" button. That in and of itself commits them to selling you the eBook outright.

We however have to be careful about what is meant by sell and lend. If I want to sell you my eBook, then even under the normal accepted and traditional copyright law, I have to delete my own copy. I think that is fair.
In addition if I want to lend you my eBook, I would again need to delete my own copy. When you return it you would need to delete your copy.

Too many people have written all over the web about the 'fact' that it is illegal to sell/lend. No law makes such a statement. No law deals with eBooks or text in an electronic format. The closest it has come is referring to software and software games. Even in this area no court has made a definitive judgement about selling on purchased software. There has been a mix of decisions, some of which have gone completely in favour of the customer.

elcreative · 01-13-2011, 12:54 PM

saoir, many people already know this but you've hit the nail right on the head... for some reason, with electronic media, people want sell/lend to include retaining one's own copy... after all it's only ones and zeroes...

Daithi · 01-13-2011, 01:19 PM

The last court ruling of which I'm aware has held that the "First Sale Doctrine" does NOT apply to "software" and that when you buy software you are only buying a license. The link I provided below is to the appeal of the famous Autodesk ruling that said the "First Sale Doctrine" did apply. The original ruling happened back in 2008 and the latest ruling was about 4 months ago.

As far as I know there has been no ruling specifially applied to ebooks, but IMHO the "software" ruling will apply to ebooks as well.

I'm not saying I agree with this ruling. I'm just saying what the lastest ruling was.

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11-13-2009, 04:23 PM	#17
norg1 Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Oct 2009 Device: palm tx	The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book.......I suppose if someone wanted to make copies of their pbook and sell copies.........but again..not the same thing...one would need a publishing house type setup to get "retail quality" pbook copies....the ebook...all one needs to do is..well, copy it.....then it is the same quality as the original....that`s the rub now isn`t it? As long as the human race is capable of deceptive activities, there will always be a need for protective practices.......... Those who abuse the system are the reason that those who do not, suffer under ever gowing rules and restrictions....a good place to start if anyone ever felt the need to call something evil........

11-13-2009, 05:04 PM	#19
CleverClothe Guru Posts: 618 Karma: 493394 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Device: iRex iLiad, Onyx Boox 60	Zombie thread is smelly.

01-13-2011, 12:50 PM	#28
saoir Groupie Posts: 188 Karma: 2088290 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Ireland Device: Kindle Paperwhite	A lot of nonsense is being written here about it being illegal to sell or lend eBooks. Firstly under the law in the UK and US it is not the case that sellers can just sit back and add in any old conditions into their TOS and have them enforced by the law. It just doesn't work that way. And no court has yet made a definitive judgement on the case of these conditions of sale and eBooks. Otherwise Ford could include conditions about only driving on specific quality roads, or only allowing four people in the car. What nonsense. Secondly Amazon and other sites use a "BUY" button. That in and of itself commits them to selling you the eBook outright. We however have to be careful about what is meant by sell and lend. If I want to sell you my eBook, then even under the normal accepted and traditional copyright law, I have to delete my own copy. I think that is fair. In addition if I want to lend you my eBook, I would again need to delete my own copy. When you return it you would need to delete your copy. Too many people have written all over the web about the 'fact' that it is illegal to sell/lend. No law makes such a statement. No law deals with eBooks or text in an electronic format. The closest it has come is referring to software and software games. Even in this area no court has made a definitive judgement about selling on purchased software. There has been a mix of decisions, some of which have gone completely in favour of the customer.

01-13-2011, 12:54 PM	#29
elcreative Wizard Posts: 2,888 Karma: 5875940 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: PRS505, 600, 350, 650, Nexus 7, Note III, iPad 4 etc	saoir, many people already know this but you've hit the nail right on the head... for some reason, with electronic media, people want sell/lend to include retaining one's own copy... after all it's only ones and zeroes...

01-13-2011, 01:19 PM	#30
Daithi Publishers are evil! Posts: 2,418 Karma: 36205264 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rhode Island Device: Various Kindles	The last court ruling of which I'm aware has held that the "First Sale Doctrine" does NOT apply to "software" and that when you buy software you are only buying a license. The link I provided below is to the appeal of the famous Autodesk ruling that said the "First Sale Doctrine" did apply. The original ruling happened back in 2008 and the latest ruling was about 4 months ago. As far as I know there has been no ruling specifially applied to ebooks, but IMHO the "software" ruling will apply to ebooks as well. I'm not saying I agree with this ruling. I'm just saying what the lastest ruling was.

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