Authors pushing books

[Kevin2960]

I didn't mean to offend, I'll not post on this one again,

I obviously got it wrong, but I was upset by the comments, I HOPE I'm the only one,

Sorry Again,

[pshrynk]

No offense taken. We've been talking about this in the Mod Suite.

[nomesque]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

I would strongly suggest if this is to be done, that it be done soon. In addition to writers who follow SoS's logic -- their books are news, of general interest, and good deals -- we also have them appearing in the Writer's Corner, because they're writers, and besides, there isn't as much competition with other writers plugging their books as there is in Deals. From a quick glance, 6 of the first 10 threads in Writer's Corner are book advertising, as are nearly all of the recent posts in Deals, and they turn up just about everywhere else, too.

Quick disclaimer: this is a friendly comment, I'm not annoyed, offended or snarky (for once )

I think there's a lot of confusion, and some of that could be sorted by making another subforum - and being VERY clear about where to put promotional items.

See, you're implying that the Writers' Corner isn't an appropriate place to advertise, but the forum description says:

Come here to showcase your latest literary work or to discuss the art, craft, and business of writing and (self-)publishing

... so when I first wandered onto these forums, that's where I made mention of my first ebook. And then, if I remember rightly (it was a while ago), a mod suggested I post in the Deals and Freebies area too

KindleBoards have a similar rule to what WW suggests - the only problem is then making sure that people follow it - the mods have a SPREADSHEET containing authors, books and the last post made. EEP?

Cripes, I'm not one of the people you particularly have in mind, am I? I know I've been rabbiting on about my latest book (NOW AVAILABLE AT - oh, right, yeah ), but only where I expect people to join in the cheering - and one little thread in Deals...

[SameOldStory]

I haven't been a member very long on MR, and was skulking long before that as I became more and more interested in ebooks. So I could be wrong, but it does seem that the book pushing has been increasing.

On the other hand I have gotten some very good books from people on MR. Not only do I enjoy some of the books, but it gives me great pleasure buying from new writers.

I would like VERY much to see a "Hay, Look At My New Book" forum. And it needs to be broken in to genres. If you want, let people vote on the genres.

I'll cast the first vote. I want a "Vampire and Mummy Romance" section. Can't get enough of those books.


Back to work.

If you look at the bottom of nomesque's post you'll see something that I would allow in any writers signature. With one proviso. Only two or three lines promoting books.

Any rules should be "at the discretion/judgment of the Mods". Loopholes not allowed. I don't want someone saying "But it doesn't say I can't do that!"

[SameOldStory]

The signature line may be as long as MR allows but the book promo may be only 2 or 3 lines.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

I find it rather narrow minded and shortsighted that some members seem to want to ban any input from Authors....

Kevin, point out where someone has said they want to ban any input from authors, and I'll snark them myself. Harshly.

Nobody wants to ban any, or all, or some, or random amounts of, input by authors. Nor does anyone want to ban book promotions. We're readers. We want to find new books to buy (or get free!). Frankly, I can't figure out where that interpretation of this discussion came from.

My suggestion -- maybe it needs another read-through? -- is that a board should be created for book promotion, so that a) people who want to read about new books can find what they're looking for easily, and b) people who want to read about other topics can find what they're looking for on boards that are currently starting to drown under advertisements for books. It's good for everybody.

It's obvious that it's not clear where book ads should be posted, since they regularly turn up on four different boards. So the natural solution is to set up a board where they clearly and obviously belong. It has nothing to do with banning anyone, or anyone's input -- just to sort ads for books into an ads-for-books board, the way, say, questions about calibre get posted on, or moved to, the calibre board.

I don't think we need sub-boards for genres; the board could just use the tags from the MR ebook posts.

[omk3]

I agree with a subforum specifically for book promotions, it's a very good idea.

Let me say first that I love the interaction with writers here in MR, the exchange of ideas, the helpful comments. I have volunteered twice for beta reading (and done some more without being asked) and gladly help any way I can. I write reviews whenever I can. I love knowing the people who write the books I read.

Some writers, like nomesque, are first of all fellow members of MR, and then authors in my mind. So if nomesque goes to a random thread, say in the lounge, and says something about her book, it's like me going to the same thread and talking about my day. No problem at all, on the contrary, it's very welcome.

But there are members that are brand new, and seem to have no idea what MR is about, except that there are readers in it. So they start promoting their books without taking part in any other forum activities. That of course would not be so bad if there was a specific place to do that. We are interested in books, even it their writers are not regular members, obviously.

What I find annoying are sneaky threads, like the "do readers frequent these forums" one, to name one example. Starting an innocent conversation only to sneak in a promotion. It's obvious such people don't really respect their readers, they only want to sell. A reader is generally a fairly intelligent person that can make his/her own choices. I can judge for myself if your book is worth reading. If you try to sell it so hard, and sneakily to boot, I'll never even look at its cover, because I feel you are trying to con me. Sorry.

And a note about signatures: Signatures are helpful. They are the easiest thing to look up when you are trying to find a link or remember a book title. Dreams for example has an extremely helpful signature with lots of useful links. I like writers having signatures with their books. Sometimes you realise that this person actually wrote that book! (for example in the case of nomesque, I had read Dead(ish) before I met her here). Sometimes you can click on the book just because you are curious what that person could have been writing about, to get a better understanding of that person. And so on. It's not exactly advertising. Covers on a signature on the other hand feel more like advertising to me. But if they are small enough I don't really mind, I guess.

My 2 cents.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

After reading through this thread, the natural first thought I had was: "Gad... am I one of those people that these guys are railing about?!?" Obviously, no one in a forum wants to be considered obnoxious (unless, of course, they really do want to be obnoxious), but there is often a fine line between advertising and annoyance that I think we're all walking here.

I would also point out that the forums, as described, are largely being used by authors in the proper way. I think some of the threads mentioned ("Are there readers here?", etc) go about advertising themselves in an admittedly sneaky way... on the other hand, as I've started threads essentially lampooning my own work to help promote it, I don't really react to threads that do a similar thing in a different way. (Gad... I really am one of those people, aren't I?)

Anyway, this is all my way of putting in my 2 cents' worth, to say that there really is no need to change the forums, or add a new forum... I think what we have works just fine. Yes, there will always be abusers... but they will abuse, no matter what you set up. You just have to be vigilant against the abuse, and know when to check out a thread, and when to ignore one.

[beachwanderer]

Originally Posted by omk3

I agree with a subforum specifically for book promotions, it's a very good idea.

Let me say first that I love the interaction with writers here in MR, the exchange of ideas, the helpful comments. I have volunteered twice for beta reading (and done some more without being asked) and gladly help any way I can. I write reviews whenever I can. I love knowing the people who write the books I read.

Some writers, like nomesque, are first of all fellow members of MR, and then authors in my mind. So if nomesque goes to a random thread, say in the lounge, and says something about her book, it's like me going to the same thread and talking about my day. No problem at all, on the contrary, it's very welcome.

But there are members that are brand new, and seem to have no idea what MR is about, except that there are readers in it. So they start promoting their books without taking part in any other forum activities. That of course would not be so bad if there was a specific place to do that. We are interested in books, even it their writers are not regular members, obviously.

Steve, I really don't think you or other authors who really take part in the discussions here on MR on numerous subjects (such as this one ) have to bother or feel adressed. The fact that you take part in this thread here shows this ... You have been around for ages () and know where you are and how to deal with things here.

But Worldwalker and omk3 in the posting quoted certainly have a point about some few new members who mistake this for a place just to do some (or excessive) promotion. With ebooks now really becoming a mainstream subject I agree with those who speak out for a new special subforum because we have to offer a place which is easy to find for the new members and were they can be directed to.

I like to know about new projects and books too and really enjoy following your and other authors postings and progress here. But the pure promo is another thing ... Hope you understand. (Or want some more honey ?)

[Worldwalker]

First, off-topic: Steve, you have an awesome website. I don't say that often or lightly.

I don't think the problem is so much abusers as confusers.

As SoS said, when someone is looking for the right place to post a notice that they have a new book available, especially if they're not a MR regular, they see a whole list of possible places to put it. It's news, certainly. It's of general interest. They're selling it cheap. They're writers. So right there, you have four possible boards it could be posted on, and not really any clear guidance as to which one of those is the right place. It's not that (most) authors are not using the forums in a proper way -- they are -- it's that there's no real designated place for book promotions, the way there are for the various devices, formats, software, etc., so they tend to show up in multiple different forums, to the benefit of no one and the detriment of everyone, including the authors themselves, because they may be posting notices of their books in places people looking for books might not find them.

On the other hand, if there was a "Promote your ebook" section, authors with new books to promote would know exactly where to go to post that notice. Likewise, the people who want something to read would be able to jump in there and see what's new, what looks interesting, and get some weekend reading without having to dig through posts about scam websites or sales on reading devices they already have.

Right now, we have four separate boards on which book ads are appearing, with the majority of them split between two of those boards. It would harm no one, and benefit everyone, to establish another board specifically for those postings.

Obviously nothing will prevent abuse, but a book promotion section would prevent confusion, which is the source of the overwhelming majority of misplaced book ads here. Isn't less confusion a good thing?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by beachwanderer

Steve, I really don't think you or other authors who really take part in the discussions here on MR on numerous subjects (such as this one ) have to bother or feel adressed. The fact that you take part in this thread here shows this ... You have been around for ages () and know where you are and how to deal with things here.

(whew!)

Originally Posted by beachwanderer

But Worldwalker and omk3 in the posting quoted certainly have a point about some few new members who mistake this for a place just to do some (or excessive) promotion...

I understand where you and the others are coming from. Problem is, how do you draw that line? Is there X amount of threads/postings you must participate in, before being allowed to post a promotional thread or posting? (Actually, there are some forums that restrict your activity until you've participated to a predetermined extent, so I guess that solution might help.)

Or do you create a detailed outline of what is acceptable? Do you run it through a pre-screening process? Does everyone have to be pre-screened?

Do you segregate the ads in one little corner, making it easy to slap an "ignore" on it and close the door on those nasty promoters once and for all?

Outside of obviously-unacceptable material (ie porn, etc), trying to restrict or control free or paid advertisement is a very slippery slope. Provided the subject matter fits the intention of the forum, it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition, morally and legally. And it's very subjective... who decides what is acceptable for everyone else?

In other media, when you come across an ad for something you don't want, or you see an ad that sneaks up on its purpose by pretending to be a survey, a come-on, or a personal opinion, most of us respond by ignoring it... once we know it for what it is. No one is banning the coal industry from advertising, for instance, because they use commercials to fight against environmental groups in their area.

So I think in this case it is our responsibility to learn to recognize these veiled ads when we see them (so we can ignore them at will), and set fair and reasonable guidelines that prevent abuse of the system. MR has guidelines, and maybe they can be tweaked a bit, but I maintain that they largely work. The rest is up to us to learn how to respond to ads, without having to resort to "hiding" the material in dark little corners where they won't bother us decent folk. I think it's a task MR members can handle, we're smart enough.

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

First, off-topic: Steve, you have an awesome website. I don't say that often or lightly.

(whew again!)

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Obviously nothing will prevent abuse, but a book promotion section would prevent confusion, which is the source of the overwhelming majority of misplaced book ads here. Isn't less confusion a good thing?

Well, I guess I never saw that as a problem, or even confusing, just threads I could read or ignore. If I'm in the minority there, so be it.

[omk3]

No one said you have to be an active member with a minimum number of posts to promote your book. Just that there should be a place specifically for this purpose.

What I said is that active members mentioning their book in several places around the forums are not annoying, because it is not usually meant as an advertisement but as part of an honest discussion. Not that they are the only ones allowed to do it

Why is it not a good idea to have all promoting in one subforum? Easy for the readers to find (or to avoid, if they wish). I'm sure we are all interested, we just don't want ads popping up in unexpected places, in the extent that it can be avoided.

[pshrynk]

In my view, a promo section would be for promos. That's more complex than it sounds, obviously. We moderators would have to use judgment on what it means, and I have confidence that we could sort it out.

Steve's parodies and such could go in either category and we'd probably leave them in the lounge or Writer's Corner because of the entertainment value. But if he wanted to advertise the Verdant Skies sequel just on its own, he would put it in the Promo Section. Likewise, when he talks int he lounge about what he is doing right now and mentions that he just finished the sequel (hint get yer ass to work) then it is just a part of talking about his day. If a newby member who is an author comes to the what are you doing right now thread and says the same thing, I see it as being just the same thing.

Not sure where I'm going with this ramble other than to show some of the thought processes I'd use in making decisions.

I am promoting having the section not as a ghetto to get rid of annoying promotions, but as a tool and asset to help our authors get a leg up in the whole get your stuff out there business.

It would also be a really good Spam filter.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by omk3

Why is it not a good idea to have all promoting in one subforum? Easy for the readers to find (or to avoid, if they wish). I'm sure we are all interested, we just don't want ads popping up in unexpected places, in the extent that it can be avoided.

As others have pointed out, I'm not sure the posters will restrict themselves to that one spot to post... they'll continue to post where they like, and just find more inventive ways to do it.

Again, I just don't have the problems others have with ads in the first place... and let's face it, this isn't about giving ads an exalted place of honor, easy for people to find... but a way to lock them out of sight and out of mind. It's another way of saying, "Keep yer stinkin' ads away from me!" even when the ads are appropriate to the site, or to the thread. I'm not sure how much I approve of that, myself... it just seems like a blanket punishment of anyone trying to promote a product, and essentially unfair.

Of course, it's not my website, and if the mods decide that's the way to go, that's their prerogative. We just get to decide whether we like that direction or not, and act accordingly.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

(hint get yer ass to work)

I'm working! I'm working! Chapter 2 is done!

(dayam!...)