How many mobi readers vs. kf8?

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[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well, that's nice, but that's a pretty far piece from what I'm seeing, when a client uploads a MOBI--as AZK's cannot be uploaded for sale--and what's delivered to a 4th-gen iPad in the iOS reading app.

Since AZK files are generated from KindleGen generated .mobi files customers with an iPad 2 (or higher) should get the equivalent of the AZK files that Kindle Previewer generates if they have Kindle for iOS 4.9 (or higher) installed.

Originally Posted by Hitch

If you upload that book that you took the screenshots of, with the red, and download the Step-7 mobi, what's THAT look like?

IMHO, uploading a test file to KDP is too much of a hassle and ultimately not worth it, because as you full well know Amazon previewers aren't 100% reliable, however, a sideloaded AZK file should reflect what customers with the latest Kindle app will get.
If you're really, really curious, feel free to process the source ePub with Kindle Previewer and upload it to KDP.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Because what I see, from my clients who have books on sale, and what the AZK looks like, aren't the same. The devices still seem to be delivering far closer to KF7 than KF8.

This behavior might be caused by outdated iOS Kindle apps (for example, drop-caps were only introduced in 4.9), CSS issues or weird KDP bugs.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Since AZK files are generated from KindleGen generated .mobi files customers with an iPad 2 (or higher) should get the equivalent of the AZK files that Kindle Previewer generates if they have Kindle for iOS 4.9 (or higher) installed.

If you say so. I'll say it again: that's not what we are seeing.

IMHO, uploading a test file to KDP is too much of a hassle and ultimately not worth it, because as you full well know Amazon previewers aren't 100% reliable, however, a sideloaded AZK file should reflect what customers with the latest Kindle app will get.
If you're really, really curious, feel free to process the source ePub with Kindle Previewer and upload it to KDP.

Seriously--you think we don't do that? Do you think we haven't tested this about a thousand times? I deal with this crap all day long. I have clients with iPads. They get an AZK, sideload, hooray!, all happy. Then they BUY the freaking book, after it's on sale. Boo-hoo, NOT happy. Jeeze, Doits. Gimme a break, wouldja?

This behavior might be caused by outdated iOS Kindle apps (for example, drop-caps were only introduced in 4.9), CSS issues or weird KDP bugs.

Right. Except it seems to happen pretty reliably constantly. According to your logic, not only are all my CLiENTS running outdated software, failing to update their apps, etc., but so are WE. AND that we're somehow, magically, getting KDP bugs that affect us, uniquely, in *every* book we make?????

Let me ask this, this way: how many books do you/your clients (?) have up for sale on Amazon, and of those, how many have iPads, and have loaded the AZK, via side-loading, and then loaded the for-sale books? I am NOT asking in any kind of combative way: I'm asking for numbers/data/statistics.

HItch

[DaleDe]

You would need to upload a Kindlegen created file or a ePub to Amazon to get an AZK. If you upload a KF7 then that is what you get out.

Dale

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

IMHO, uploading a test file to KDP is too much of a hassle and ultimately not worth it, because as you full well know Amazon previewers aren't 100% reliable, however, a sideloaded AZK file should reflect what customers with the latest Kindle app will get.
If you're really, really curious, feel free to process the source ePub with Kindle Previewer and upload it to KDP.

Why is that a hassle, given that you'll have to do it eventually? (I understand why it might be a hassle for a commercial formatter--is that what you are?)

I finish in Sigil, upload the epub to the KDP, let it convert, and download the converted book. I don't find that a burdensome procedure at all; the thirty seconds or so it takes to convert, I spend reading the NYT headlines online (and I would of course have to go through that conversion anyhow). I then preview it in Kindle Previewer, which I find very accurate.

Basically, I don't trust Amazon not to make stealth changes in the conversion process, so that's the version I want to preview. Similarly, I buy a copy of the book as soon as it's available, to see what changes have been made in the publishing process.

To be sure, my books are simple, no media calls or like that.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

You would need to upload a Kindlegen created file or a ePub to Amazon to get an AZK. If you upload a KF7 then that is what you get out.

Dale

Dale?

Were you speaking to me? We don't make KF7-only files. I don't think we've done that since...2010, or thereabouts. Whenever KF8 started, we instantly started making KF8-mobis, with the whole enchilada inside--source, KF7, KF8, and we starting using media queries immediately.

If you were speaking to someone else, I'm not sure what it's in relation to? Which post, or...?

Hitch

[Hitch]

By the way:

As a follow-up, in case ANYONE here gives a crap, the books that come out, for sale, on Amazon, are NOT AZK. They aren't even remotely "KF8." We've been working on this for several weeks now, with a specific set of format elements that we've been dealing with, and AZK is like....I am not sure what the HELL Amazon thinks that's for, other than utterly misleading people, but for example, if you set images with percentages (less than 100% for width), you get KF7 results, NOT KF8.

As stated previously, the output is KF7 on an iPad, of whatever generation. You can almost use KP's DX emulator, to see what you're going to get. Not quite--but a hell of a lot closer than AZK, which is NOTHING like the real, final, for-sale output. And yes, today, I'm mad as hell about it.

Hitch

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

As a follow-up, in case ANYONE here gives a crap, the books that come out, for sale, on Amazon, are NOT AZK.

IMHO, this doesn't make sense.

Why would Amazon develop azkcreator.exe if they didn't plan on using it?
Why would they advertise drop caps capability in their latest iOS version (4.9.1), which is a KF8-only feature?
(Unless, of course, drop caps capability is the only KF8 feature that is officially supported.)

I'm assuming that you and your client have already tried the following:

Installed and registered the latest iOS Kindle app (4.9.1) on an iPad model with iOS 7.1.2 (or higher) and then bought and downloaded the book in question. (Older iOS devices and apps might not be supported.)

It that's the case and a sideloaded AZK version of the same file displays fine, there's a KDP backend problem that Amazon needs to fix. My guess is that their pipeline tool might fall back to KF7 mode if it encounters CSS rules that it can't handle and your book might just contain such a style.

BTW, did you report this as a KDP bug and what does KDP support say?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

IMHO, this doesn't make sense.

Why would Amazon develop azkcreator.exe if they didn't plan on using it?
Why would they advertise drop caps capability in their latest iOS version (4.9.1), which is a KF8-only feature?
(Unless, of course, drop caps capability is the only KF8 feature that is officially supported.)

Doits, with all due respect, how the HELL would I know? But I know what repeated--and I mean, REPEATED--real world tests indicate. Yes, *some* KF8 features do "pull through" into K4iPad, from an uploaded MOBI file at the KDP, but not all, not all at all. Fonts, borders, image sizes...there's a LOT that isn't working correctly (assuming arguendo that this is allegedly really KF8), but which seems perfectly explicable if you assume that "K4ios" really means..."kinda sorta KF8, we're working on it, and we're getting there."

I'm assuming that you and your client have already tried the following:

Installed and registered the latest iOS Kindle app (4.9.1) on an iPad model with iOS 7.1.2 (or higher) and then bought and downloaded the book in question. (Older iOS devices and apps might not be supported.)

I know that in your heart of hearts, you really like me and somewhat respect me, so I'm going to ignore that, so that I don't feel some moral obligation to kill you. Of course we've done that, and, c'mon, my brother, it's not like we're talking about ONE client. We're not. We have a shedload of "creatives" that are all Mac users, that are laden with iPads of all gens. I spent time today--quite a bit of it--on something that we took up doing, for pullquotes, just on this very topic: K4iPad. Tested on not one, not two, but THREE diff. iPads, all different gens, etc. All just today. And, yes, most of our testing was buying books that we'd already made, that have gone through, with similar/identical coding, to see what the real, live, "for-sale" version really looks like. (I hope my clients enjoyed the sales, as we were forced to buy a few). I mean, dropcaps? That's not really what we've been looking at, but now that you mention it, I shall. Might as well.

It that's the case and a sideloaded AZK version of the same file displays fine, there's a KDP backend problem that Amazon needs to fix. My guess is that their pipeline tool might fall back to KF7 mode if it encounters CSS rules that it can't handle and your book might just contain such a style.

BTW, did you report this as a KDP bug and what does KDP support say?

Honestly, no, I didn't. K4iOS has been buggy, to my way of thinking, for so long that I don't think about it, unless/until I run into something here or out and about saying that (no offense) AZK is representative of what the "4sale" mobi looks like on K4iPad, and then my brain melts, thinking "oh, yeah, but...nyah. Not really." However, I suppose, all things being equal, it won't hurt for me to point it out to them, for whatever that's worth. And it's also true that, with all due modesty (I really mean that; it's the luck of the draw and the type of books we get that have forced the issue; truthfully, I'd be ecstatic if we pulled down 100% fiction every month, myself, although the bookmakers would be cranky and bored with it PDQ), we are probably doing some things, coding-wise, in commercial books, that isn't being done in most places, and so...hell, maybe they DON'T know. They didn't know--more than once--that they'd done something in the KDP intake process that was eating and digesting and not regurgitating fonts; they didn't know, two years back, that they'd utterly bollixed the SRL location...so...maybe they really DO NOT know.

Ergo, being thus motivated by your good self, Doits, I'll go tell them about it. We've had to create coding workarounds {SIGH} for some of this crap, too (even to hiding one image, displaying another, depending on the version, yabbety-yab), so...heck, if they fix it, I'd be tickled. {shrug}. However, I had a minor med. procedure last Thursday, launched our new website yesterday, and have dozens of heavily-formatted books in to quote and (of course) create samples for, so...it won't be tomorrow. I need some bloody rest, especially after birthin' that website baby. A girl needs her beauty sleep, y'know.

[Notjohn]

but not all, not all at all

Hitch, I do enjoy your phrasing, and have appropriated one or two ("automagical" is now a favorite locution of mine). Sometimes I wonder if you shouldn't be writing the books instead of formatting them!

love - NJ

[eschwartz]

Hitch, congrats on the new website! Looks nice.

(Automagical, I love that word. Been using it for years and years and years. )

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I know that in your heart of hearts, you really like me and somewhat respect me, so I'm going to ignore that, so that I don't feel some moral obligation to kill you.

Of course, I didn't question your technical expertise, and if it makes you feel any better, feel free to create little paper voodoo dolls with my avatar on it and destroy them in any way you see fit.



It looks like K4iOS supports some but not all KF8 features and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turned out that Amazon really only implemented drop caps and a handful of other cosmetic features.

However, based on mattmc's K4iOS, AZK, The Latest post it looks like Amazon delivers a file format to K4iOS that is very close to the format that AZKCreator.exe generates.

I asked mattmc to chime in on this, however, since he hasn't visited in MR in weeks, we might not get an answer.

BTW, I like your new website, however, the About us link is broken. It points to:

http://www.booknook.biz/our-services/348-about-us

but should probably point to:

http://www.booknook.biz/booknook-services/about-us

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

but not all, not all at all

Hitch, I do enjoy your phrasing, and have appropriated one or two ("automagical" is now a favorite locution of mine). Sometimes I wonder if you shouldn't be writing the books instead of formatting them!

love - NJ

@nj: thanks. I'd love to claim "automagical" as mine own, but I'm pretty sure it's not. I've certainly heard it and appropriated it myself, from only heavens-knows-where. And thanks for the idea--I've been trying to get the time (and the hands, late at night) left over to work on something for ages, but....now, I just don't know. I'm pretty done-in by EOB.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Hitch, congrats on the new website! Looks nice.

(Automagical, I love that word. Been using it for years and years and years. )

Thanks, @eschwartz! We worked hard on it; this morning I realized I'd done something UTTERLY IDIOTIC with the Contact form, and fixed that. Ah, the site-launch blues, LOL.

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Of course, I didn't question your technical expertise, and if it makes you feel any better feel free to create little paper voodoo dolls with my avatar on it and destroy in any way you see fit.



It looks like K4iOS supports some but not all KF8 features and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turned out that Amazon really only implemented drop caps and a handful of other cosmetic features.

However, based on mattmc's K4iOS, AZK, The Latest post it looks like Amazon delivers a file format to K4iOS that is very close to the format that AZKCreator.exe generates.

I asked mattmc to chime in on this, however, since he hasn't visited in MR in weeks, we might not get an answer.

BTW, I like your new website, however, the About us link is broken. It points to:

http://www.booknook.biz/our-services/348-about-us

but should probably point to:

http://www.booknook.biz/booknook-services/about-us

Doits, can you tell me, before I thank you for everything else, where you're seeing that link with the 348 in it? We recently did a massive optimization on the URL's, and the idea that I missed it somewhere on the site is not shocking to me. Right now, it looks to me, from hither and yon, that they are all pointing to http://www.booknook.biz/booknook-services/about-us , but I'll look if you don't have the time to tell me where that errant sucker is.

I adore the voodoo doll. Speaking of appropriating things... {insert evil grin here]...

On the topic of K4iOS/yadda, we spent some time yesterday, as I'm mentioned (and as you all no doubt noticed, in a fit of pique posted about it) working on a book for an important client of ours, in which we have floating content. We have pullquotes (which resize with the font, both the text and the surrounding brackets), and images. According to Barb (after spending the entire day on it yesterday, AT LEAST, not for the first time)--bar none, the best maker here:

"AZK ignores width settings in percents. Floating only works if you have something that is physically small enough to fit in at the side of the text."

This was after extensive, and I mean, EXTENSIVE testing yesterday, which came hot on the heels of some fairly extensive work and testing before yesterday. If AZK were really following KF8, neither of those things would be true, and as I said to Barb, today, the thing with the "floating" success being due to SIZE is....to my mind, irrational. Period. I can't even explicate that to myself as a damn bug.

n.b.: let's not forget that Voyage has that weirdo width bug, too, for images? Not the same, mind you...but not totally dissimilar, either. If you have an image that's <50% wide in Voyage, you're set; but if it's 51%, you're screwed, it blows up to full width. Now, again: this isn't the same as this wacky, "the image won't float unless it's SMALL enough, in iOS," but...I wonder if they are in some wild-ass way related? In some algo, somewhere?

FWIW. And yes, My Little Voodoo Doll, I shall inform the Lords of Light at Amazon forthwith. I need another day's sleep, please, before I try to sound coherent. I'm only posting here to a) be polite, and b) because I know you lovelies won't hold idiocy against me if I blither. ;-)

Hitch

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Doits, can you tell me, before I thank you for everything else, where you're seeing that link with the 348 in it?

I found it at the bottom of the main index.php page:

The full path is:

http://www.booknook.biz/index.php/our-services/348-about-us

Unfortunately, the contact link on the same page is also broken:

http://www.booknook.biz/index.php/faux-contact

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

On the topic of K4iOS/yadda, we spent some time yesterday, as I'm mentioned (and as you all no doubt noticed, in a fit of pique posted about it) working on a book for an important client of ours, in which we have floating content. We have pullquotes (which resize with the font, both the text and the surrounding brackets), and images. According to Barb (after spending the entire day on it yesterday, AT LEAST, not for the first time)--bar none, the best maker here:

"AZK ignores width settings in percents. Floating only works if you have something that is physically small enough to fit in at the side of the text."

That would be the 4-column bible you mentioned, but didn't say much else about?

Can't say I'm surprised. Bibles are an, er, a challenge.