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Old 06-06-2018, 10:09 AM   #1
nadabutamor
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Space between First and Second line on the Chapters

Hey happy helpers!

So I've formatted this novel for a client but when I convert the book to mobi there seems to be a space between the first and second line of the first paragraph of every chapter.

Check this out:

Went in a looked at the coding and noticed that it was the first large letter of every paragraph that was causing it. So when I remove the first letter, the spacing between the lines are normal. But I'd like to keep it Larger than the rest.

This is the coding that I used.
Quote:
<p class="First-Paragraph"><span class="First-Letter-Caps---Caslon _idGenCharOverride-1">A</span><span class="Caps">melia Knight pulled </span>the hood over her head and stepped into the mouth of hell.</p>
Quote:
span.First-Letter-Caps---Caslon {
font-family:"Adobe Caslon Pro", serif;
font-size:2.25em;
font-style:normal;
font-weight:normal;
}
If anyone knows how to fix it or if anyone sees what I'm not seeing in the codes, do let me know. I would love the help and to learn from this.

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Old 06-06-2018, 01:29 PM   #2
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Although in your example the "A" does not go below the baseline, setting a larger font will adjust the line spacing to allows for letters with descenders, such as "j".
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Old 06-07-2018, 03:27 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by jhowell View Post
Although in your example the "A" does not go below the baseline, setting a larger font will adjust the line spacing to allows for letters with descenders, such as "j".
Thanks for replying jhowell!
I made the font larger and even changed the font from Adobe Caslon to Adobe Garamond and then to Times, but it still turns out the same for some reason.

It could be the automated margins around the "A" that's messing with it, or just the ebooks being ebooks.

I'm just going to remove the first large letter and keep it all the same size. I'll explain that the client that it's one of the many flaws of ebook files that sometimes work and sometimes doesn't.

But if you know another solution to this issue, I would love to learn about it!
Thank you so much!
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Old 06-07-2018, 12:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadabutamor View Post
Thanks for replying jhowell!
I made the font larger and even changed the font from Adobe Caslon to Adobe Garamond and then to Times, but it still turns out the same for some reason.

It could be the automated margins around the "A" that's messing with it, or just the ebooks being ebooks.

I'm just going to remove the first large letter and keep it all the same size. I'll explain that the client that it's one of the many flaws of ebook files that sometimes work and sometimes doesn't.

But if you know another solution to this issue, I would love to learn about it!
Thank you so much!
So, Nothing But Love:

You said that you're making this book for a client, is that right? Presumably, that means you're being paid?

This is a perfectly common result, in MOBI, and has been for the last 8+ years. With all due respect--because we all have to start someplace--if you haven't dealt with this before, that says to me that you probably don't have enough experience to be charging someone.

Changing the font will have precisely ZERO effect on the line-height issue that surrounds Raised Initials or Dropcaps or BFLs. There are ways to work around this, but...that requires experience. And to do it correctly, it requires writing media queries for pretty much every device. it's a fair amount of work--but it's doable. And even then, there can be issues--and if you don't have 5 or more devices to test upon, you won't see them coming.

You should be upfront and tell your client that you simply don't have the knowledge to fix it, because when s/he sees other ebooks with Drops, BFLs and RIs that don't have this issue, s/he is going to wonder about what you're telling him/her.

I'm sorry if I sound blunt or harsh, but we are constantly seeing posts like this here, from bookmakers with paying clients, who are running into the most basic issues, in eBookmaking, that they should have already run into and surmounted on their first book, or certainly within their first FEW books. (My first Raised Initial, and the concomitant complications? In my 4th, ever, MOBI file. Late 2009 or possibly Spring of 2010, if memory serves. ) I strongly recommend that you 'fess up to your client, and perhaps consider subbing out the work to a more-experienced bookmaker. God knows, there are a thousand home-based "formatters" available out there who work on the cheap.


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Old 06-07-2018, 04:11 PM   #5
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Not having Hitch's chops, I long ago gave up drop-caps, and I've never been tempted to try their less-handsome substitutes. Instead I use boldface faux small caps @ 90 percent. KF7 ignores the 90 percent and I think also the boldface, with a result that's perfectly acceptable.
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notjohn View Post
Not having Hitch's chops, I long ago gave up drop-caps, and I've never been tempted to try their less-handsome substitutes. Instead I use boldface faux small caps @ 90 percent. KF7 ignores the 90 percent and I think also the boldface, with a result that's perfectly acceptable.
I'm not gonna lie--to do it right is a crapload of work. Every font is different, and you have to write custom MQ's for every individual font, against the myriad device base fonts, and the abysmal reality is, no matter WHAT you do, no matter how good you are, if you use fonts for the drops, you're screwed on the Paperwhites if the reader does not elect to use Publisher fonts. Unlike all the other KF8s, you can't embed the Drop font and force it; the PPW family allows complete overriding, so...screwed. (All those people that use that Mac program, the one that they think is sooooooooooooo awesome, to format their books? With the Bilbo Swash Caps? Open one of those suckers on a PPW. [shudders delicately])

You could do a workaround with a graphic first letter. but again, that ain't for the faint of heart, either. Before Ruben jumps in--for ALL devices, Rube! ;-) (You know I love ya, right?)

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Old 06-08-2018, 09:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
So, Nothing But Love:

You said that you're making this book for a client, is that right? Presumably, that means you're being paid?

This is a perfectly common result, in MOBI, and has been for the last 8+ years. With all due respect--because we all have to start someplace--if you haven't dealt with this before, that says to me that you probably don't have enough experience to be charging someone.

Changing the font will have precisely ZERO effect on the line-height issue that surrounds Raised Initials or Dropcaps or BFLs. There are ways to work around this, but...that requires experience. And to do it correctly, it requires writing media queries for pretty much every device. it's a fair amount of work--but it's doable. And even then, there can be issues--and if you don't have 5 or more devices to test upon, you won't see them coming.

You should be upfront and tell your client that you simply don't have the knowledge to fix it, because when s/he sees other ebooks with Drops, BFLs and RIs that don't have this issue, s/he is going to wonder about what you're telling him/her.

I'm sorry if I sound blunt or harsh, but we are constantly seeing posts like this here, from bookmakers with paying clients, who are running into the most basic issues, in eBookmaking, that they should have already run into and surmounted on their first book, or certainly within their first FEW books. (My first Raised Initial, and the concomitant complications? In my 4th, ever, MOBI file. Late 2009 or possibly Spring of 2010, if memory serves. ) I strongly recommend that you 'fess up to your client, and perhaps consider subbing out the work to a more-experienced bookmaker. God knows, there are a thousand home-based "formatters" available out there who work on the cheap.


Hitch
So, Hitch,

THANK YOU so very much for yet again honest reply. You've always managed to give me a slap in the face that I'm not an expert or as experienced in the field of ebooks as you. You've formatted over thousands; maybe, even more, books so it's safe to say that you truly are the extravagant expert in all things ebook related.

Thank you so much for the honest reminder.

I agree that I may be a novice and not as experienced as you or the thousands of formatters out there, I have a lot of questions and I make a whole lot of mistakes but isn't that a learning experience? I enjoy this work and making clients happy with the simple books I put together for them.

I may run into some errors here and there, and that's the reason why I'm asking a forum about it. For feedback, for help, for support, for all of us to learn from each other. Isn't this what forums are here for?

So thank you for confirming that changing the font won't do anything. I've always appreciated your honest replies, so thank you once again, I hope you have an amazing rest of the week!
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
You could do a workaround with a graphic first letter. but again, that ain't for the faint of heart, either. Before Ruben jumps in--for ALL devices, Ruben ;-) (You know I love ya, right?)

Hitch
You are wonderful Hitch Yes, I know, I know And you are right, it's not easy to have a raised cap for ALL Kindle devices. And we already have had this talk previously Remember this post?

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=14

Wow! It was 2014; indeed, the time flies.
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadabutamor View Post
So, Hitch,

THANK YOU so very much for yet again honest reply. You've always managed to give me a slap in the face that I'm not an expert or as experienced in the field of ebooks as you. You've formatted over thousands; maybe, even more, books so it's safe to say that you truly are the extravagant expert in all things ebook related.

Thank you so much for the honest reminder.

I agree that I may be a novice and not as experienced as you or the thousands of formatters out there, I have a lot of questions and I make a whole lot of mistakes but isn't that a learning experience? I enjoy this work and making clients happy with the simple books I put together for them.

I may run into some errors here and there, and that's the reason why I'm asking a forum about it. For feedback, for help, for support, for all of us to learn from each other. Isn't this what forums are here for?

So thank you for confirming that changing the font won't do anything. I've always appreciated your honest replies, so thank you once again, I hope you have an amazing rest of the week!
Everyone needs experience. My point is, and always is, there's a huge difference between gaining experience, charging to gain that experience, and then...what's the best word for this?...telling the client something that flatly isn't accurate. That's my point.

If you think I'm the only member here who gets exasperated at seeing post after post, from inexperienced bookmakers who are charging people to make books, you're wrong.

I don't care if you format books. I don't care if you need experience. I do care if you are charging people while you are learning. You think I'm being a d*ck, fine. But what you're not thinking about is how may utterly unqualified formatters out there are taking money from people and turning out utter sh*t, then coming up with these excuses and stories, about how it's "the device" or "the format," etc. And here's my bitch about it:

It gives "formatters" a bad name.

I just, just had an email about this, this morning. I received a forward from a writing mailing list, of various self-pubs, and there was a thread about some author "looking for a formatter." The horrifying number of replies, about how "ALL" formatters are incompetent THIEVES, because so-and-so paid some guy that did X, or couldn't do Y, or who lied that their eBook couldn't do Z, makes me sick to my stomach. It's not bad enough that every bloody Tom Dick and Harry thinks that formatting is word-processing, but THIS gets added into the mix, and I might as well be trying to make a living in a mountain of faith healers.

You say, "...I make a whole lot of mistakes but isn't that a learning experience?" Sure--but you're CHARGING people to do this. Like all people that are new to something, you don't know what you don't know. You didn't know about this issue with line-heights (due to descenders, by the way), which most formatters wrangle with, inside of their first 3-5 books.

I mean, seriously, do you think I CHARGED people, for the first 10 or 20 books I made? I most certainly didn't. I made books using Project Gutenberg raw material. I made them from txt files. I made them from HTML, etc. In order to learn how to make the books correctly, before I ever charged a dime. Even when people asked me to make books, early on, when I was just giving people free help on the DorothyL mailing list, of course I didn't charge, because, to make my position clear, people have zero right to charge for ANYTHING, of ANY KIND, if they don't have EXPERTISE in it.

Sure, it's "just" book formatting. It's not Rocket Surgery. It's not Brain Science. It's "just" formatting, but this effing attitude that it's okay to NOT KNOW how to do something properly, but charge for it, boggles me. When the hell did this become the norm?

Would it be okay for some schmoe to show up at your house, in response to an ad you ran, asking for a painter, a plumber, an electrician, charge you and then when something goes wrong, say, "oooh, oops, well, I'M JUST LEARNING?" This absolutely slays me. I suspect you'd be irate if someone did that to you--but that's exactly what you're doing to this client--a client that WANTS Dropcaps, and you're going to tell him/her that the "device can't do it."

Sure, you're not blowing up his house, or exploding his toilet, or putting on paint that will show every single thing below it. You're not doing anything that's life-or-death--but you know what? That author worked hard to make that money that you're pocketing. Maybe harder than you know. He has a right to the expertise for which he paid. Expertise which, clearly, you do not yet have. Right? You don't claim that you do, at least, not here. How do you reconcile that?

This is becoming so common, with the advent of the Internet--people just hang out any old shingle, claiming to be whatever. eBook experts, publishing experts, experts in this or that, or "literary agents," and there's nothing stopping them.

I know of a woman who used our service, in 2010, to make her ebook. It was dreck, pure and simple. She spent an absurd fortune having the book commercially prepared for print, having illustrations created, etc., thinking that this was going to be some huge commercial success, spawning a series of related self-help books, right? The thing is an ABYSMAL failure, by any stretch of the imagination.

But by God, now she's ON THE INTERNET, now as an "EXPERT" Self-publishing coach and book shepherd. A self-appointed, self-anointed expert, fleecing those who know even less than she does, with her VAST experience in being a total failure to help her. Part of her alleged "expertise?" BOOK MARKETING. Right, because her knowledge propelled her own book to the 5 millionth position, or whatever, on Amazon.

So, what, people who pay her should just have thought "caveat emptor?" Is that what they should think about you?

Sorry, but I don't "get it." I don't understand why anyone thinks it's okay to charge to do something that they don't have full expertise in. It's the same crap, over and over on Fiverr, etc. (where I've seen a "cover designer" advertising his services using the covers created by Derek Murphy, for his DIY Book Covers Service, another "honest" citizen who's just learning, right?), over and over again.

Whatever, do what you want. People don't know what to ask, they don't know HTML, they can't know whether or not a formatter knows ANYTHING, or not. Every publishing scam out there knows that wanna-be authors are easy pickings. Why should YOU be any damn different?

In ten years, not ONCE I have I told a prospective client that we knew how to do something that we hadn't already done successfully. When we've been asked for something new-to-us, I tell them the truth. I say "well, nope, we haven't done that, but we've done X, which makes me confident that we can do Y, and if you're willing to be our crash-test dummy, I'll give you a significant break on your fees." You know what? Every single person that I have had that conversation with has accepted, and both sides have been happy with the outcome.

Are YOU telling your clients that you've only done a handful of books? That you're a novice? Are you charging like you're a novice, with full disclosure? If you are, then I'll shut up. If you're not, I'll continue to point out that you--or anyone like you--shouldn't charge, for ANYTHING, until you know how to do it, at least to the point where something like that Raised Initial/Dropcap won't throw you off.

Happy now, that you got your response in? I'm done with this.

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Old 06-09-2018, 03:35 AM   #10
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Hitch
Heya Hitch, thanks again for the detailed response. I didn't mean to get you excited about explaining yourself. Yikes!

Either way, I understand your points and how it can get infuriating when new formatters charge a ton of cash to indie authors for their ebooks. We're just trying to protect the author and other clients from losing money. I understand that fully.

Of course, I tell a client when I don't know how to do something and when an error comes up and I don't know how to fix, that's ethics 101 on my books. I'd rather say what I know rather than make a fool out of myself. So that's why I ask questions. Thaaaat's all.

So that's that! I'm sure on the next round would be loads smoother!
Thanks again for all the honest advice!
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Old 06-09-2018, 02:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadabutamor View Post
Heya Hitch, thanks again for the detailed response. I didn't mean to get you excited about explaining yourself. Yikes!

Either way, I understand your points and how it can get infuriating when new formatters charge a ton of cash to indie authors for their ebooks. We're just trying to protect the author and other clients from losing money. I understand that fully.

Of course, I tell a client when I don't know how to do something and when an error comes up and I don't know how to fix, that's ethics 101 on my books. I'd rather say what I know rather than make a fool out of myself. So that's why I ask questions. Thaaaat's all.

So that's that! I'm sure on the next round would be loads smoother!
Thanks again for all the honest advice!

I am VERY happy to hear all of that. It's..it's just endlessly frustratign to me, when I see book after book here, from clients that have been "taken" (and not in that cool-beans Liam Neeson way, either...) by folks who either mean well, and just don't know WTH they are doing, or those who know that they don't know, and just don't care. Makes staying cheery a challenge, sometimes.

I'm glad that you have the integrity to tell folks what you don't know. To me, that makes ALL the difference. Sorry if I was..ultra-cranky.

Pax.

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Old 06-09-2018, 05:35 PM   #12
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Everyone needs experience.

Sorry, but I don't "get it." I don't understand why anyone thinks it's okay to charge to do something that they don't have full expertise in.
Hee!

You remind me of my first database consultancy job, I being 19 at the time.

A neighbour who had 12 Commodore PETs was stuck trying to convert to a new database.

I took it on, "no cure no fee" and was paid. A bottle of plum brandy.
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Old 06-09-2018, 06:04 PM   #13
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Hee!

You remind me of my first database consultancy job, I being 19 at the time.

A neighbour who had 12 Commodore PETs was stuck trying to convert to a new database.

I took it on, "no cure no fee" and was paid. A bottle of plum brandy.
Holy crap! Did a hangover cure come with that "payment?" (Or was that punishment?)

Commodores, good lord, we're dating ourselves, y'know that, right?

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Old 06-10-2018, 06:48 AM   #14
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>Either way, I understand your points and how it can get infuriating when new formatters charge a ton of cash to indie authors for their ebooks.

Wait! There's "a ton of cash" in this?
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:31 AM   #15
Hitch
Bookmaker & Cat Slave
Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Hitch ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
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Posts: 6,571
Karma: 60087648
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Device: K2, iPad, KFire, PPW, Voyage, and NookColor. 2 Droid, 1 Win8 ePUB rdrs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notjohn View Post
>Either way, I understand your points and how it can get infuriating when new formatters charge a ton of cash to indie authors for their ebooks.

Wait! There's "a ton of cash" in this?
Oh, yeah, I'm bloody rolling in it, didn'tja know? It's such a gold mine, my , lol. That's my big secret, and why I'm protecting the mine.

Spoiler:
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! When my accountant saw the profitability numbers, per-book, he advised me to find another line of work.
No kidding.


(hooey).
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