Amazon changes ebook refund policy

[stumped]

Originally Posted by Quoth

A lot of famous author books are pirated from ARC.

I..

Like Diap Dealer, I'm sceptical that this is any more than PR.

Some are flagged as arc on download sites, but many more are flagged as retail.

And popular releases appear on day one of release, before anyone has had the time to read every page!

poorly scanned paper books have been overtaken by retail epub, Kindle etc.

For what it's worth, I have never seen kepubs on offer, not that I have tried to find any

[stumped]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Rest assured, I am outraged

It's crazy but true that the 30 days free returns on paperback books is not just for defective books. It's a free 1 month loan if people choose to treat it as such.
Read the Amazon terms and conditions for free returns
.a book can be returned without needing a reason
And even a slow reader could finish almost any book in 30 days!

I have not looked into how widespread this is. I noticed it first on all the ABRSM music exam pieces books..

I see also that most Google play books can be returned within 7 days, like with kindle. No obvious restrictions. No warnings that I could see about excessive returns. Seems over generous as the rule for Google play apps and games is that you can only return if used for less than 2 hours.maybe
e they don't , or cant track reading time, only elapsed owned time.

I think 2 hours is plenty long enough to decide to return a book. Not long enough to read a complete lengthy book for free, but enough to assess quality and return if dissatisfied

[Little.Egret]

"I think 2 hours is plenty long enough to decide to return a book. Not long enough to read a complete lengthy book"

Sounds like Author Guild 'thought ' no one buys more than one book a day and always has free time after immediately after buying.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by stumped

I think 2 hours is plenty long enough to decide to return a book. Not long enough to read a complete lengthy book for free, but enough to assess quality and return if dissatisfied

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

Sounds like Author Guild 'thought ' no one buys more than one book a day and always has free time after immediately after buying.

Yeah, I agree. I buy books sometimes while at work or out on vacation and won't look at them for hours or days.

For ebooks at least, having some percent read threshold makes a lot of sense. It is not perfect, what what is?

I download the books and convert them to ePub, so as far as Amazon is concerned, I haven't read any of the books I've purchased.

But I'm also in a small minority here.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

"I think 2 hours is plenty long enough to decide to return a book. Not long enough to read a complete lengthy book"

Sounds like Author Guild 'thought ' no one buys more than one book a day and always has free time after immediately after buying.

I've got books still "to be read" that I bought years ago. A few might even stretch into the "decades ago" realm. these are paper books. eBooks, I have not been into for as long - probably only 7 years. But I do have some eBooks that were bought those 7 years ago that are still waiting to be read.

But I wouldn't have the gall to try and return them now. That would be obscene behavior.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by theducks

I remember when Macy's allowed returns (for store credit) without a receipt (wedding gifts were a big%), till it got abused with items bought elsewhere for less.

The bottom line is I have no issue with Amazon tightening the rules.
The cheaters have spoiled another good thing for all of us.

I remember thinking this won't last, when Walmart did the same thing. I think it was late '90s or early 2000s. They were so surprised that people were returning items that Walmart did not sell.
Apache

[Leseratte_10]

Originally Posted by stumped

It's crazy but true that the 30 days free returns on paperback books is not just for defective books. It's a free 1 month loan if people choose to treat it as such.
Read the Amazon terms and conditions for free returns
.a book can be returned without needing a reason
And even a slow reader could finish almost any book in 30 days!

If you decide to abuse Amazon as a free library, they'll notice and ban you. Same as when people return too much (physical) stuff they bought on Amazon - eventually they're going to tell you to stop doing that.

Originally Posted by stumped

I think 2 hours is plenty long enough to decide to return a book. Not long enough to read a complete lengthy book for free, but enough to assess quality and return if dissatisfied.

That is partially true - yes, two hours of *reading* is long enough to decide to return a book.

I can count the number of times on one hand where I bought an eBook and then *immediately* had time to start reading it. Usually when I buy books I buy them throughout the day when I notice them, then read them in bed in the evening or on the weekend.

So unless you mean "two hours of the book being open on a Kindle reader actively being read" and not "two hours after buying the book", then no, two hours is definitely not enough. Yes, it's enough for "Oops, bought a book because of the stupid 1-click-purchase again", but not for any kind of quality check on the book.

[haertig]

I would probably be fine with no ebook returns, if Amazon made the standard shopping cart purchase method the default and allowed customers to turn on or turn off 1-click as they desire.

If you don't like the author's writing style or the story was no good, or there are too many spelling and punctuation errors, or you don't like books with extra blank lines between paragraphs in their formatting - that just kind of comes with the territory of buying literature. I don't see it as a reason for return.

There are probably a few rare cases where an ebook return is truly justified. I'll bet those are few and far between (ignoring 1-click errors for the moment). And those few returns could be handled on an individual basis.

I doubt Amazon would offer ebook returns if they (Amazon) were the one losing money on the deal. But from what I have read on these forums, Amazon has no skin in the game - they take the money back from the authors. That is not a fair situation IMHO, but I guess the authors agree to it when they sign up to sell with Amazon.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by haertig

If you don't like the author's writing style or the story was no good, or there are too many spelling and punctuation errors, or you don't like books with extra blank lines between paragraphs in their formatting - that just kind of comes with the territory of buying literature. I don't see it as a reason for return.

There are probably a few rare cases where an ebook return is truly justified. I'll bet those are few and far between (ignoring 1-click errors for the moment). And those few returns could be handled on an individual basis.

Writing style or lousy story? I write it off to experience and will probably never purchase another ebook by that author.

Formatting? In case of formatting issues, I correct them if the time needed is small enough. Sigil and calibre's editor make it relatively easy these days.

Too many punctuation and spelling errors? Those deserve a return and hopefully, a quality notice. This is not all that common these days for the books I am reading since the authors of 99% of the indie books I've purchased recently are either using professional editors to help produce a higher quality ebook, have realized that that using spell and grammar checking is not a bad idea and/or are using a beta readers group.

So far I've only had one issue with returning an ebook to Amazon and after responding with a list of the egregious errors in the first 5 chapters, that issue went away.

[ekbell]

I think it's reasonable to return faulty merchandise and a book with multiple spelling/grammar errors is as faulty as a shirt missing buttons.

I once returned an ebook (from Google) because it was not the listed book. I also informed the author/publisher so that they could either correct or complain.

I've also come across a book that was missing the last few paragraphs, although as I had received it as a freebie and hadn't bothered to check it for months, I didn't bother complaining.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by ekbell

I think it's reasonable to return faulty merchandise and a book with multiple spelling/grammar errors is as faulty as a shirt missing buttons.

I once returned an ebook (from Google) because it was not the listed book. I also informed the author/publisher so that they could either correct or complain.

I've also come across a book that was missing the last few paragraphs, although as I had received it as a freebie and hadn't bothered to check it for months, I didn't bother complaining.

Unless they are considered accessories. Most people do not know that the Seiko warranty on watches does not cover the band. It is considered an accessory by Seiko. I feel that the band is a necessity for a wristwatch.
Most shoe manufacturers consider tassels an accessory and if it falls off you are out of luck. So, who knows what part of the book publishers considers to be an accessory.
Apache

[haertig]

Originally Posted by ekbell

I think it's reasonable to return faulty merchandise and a book with multiple spelling/grammar errors is as faulty as a shirt missing buttons.

I wonder how many returns Daniel Keyes had to put up with for Flowers For Algernon?

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by haertig

I wonder how many returns Daniel Keyes had to put up with for Flowers For Algernon?

There was a complaint in a fanzine back in late 1959/early 1960 after Flowers for Algernon was published in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction about the author overusing mis-spelling and grammar errors.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by haertig

I wonder how many returns Daniel Keyes had to put up with for Flowers For Algernon?

I think that at least some bookstores back then (including department store book sections*) took returns, and that the publisher of that title in turn took returns from the bookstores on unsold copies.

The question then is -- did this impact Daniel Keyes?

To know that, we would have to see his contract. My speculation is that:

a. He got an advance, since the original magazine story was the equivalent of a strong book proposal.

and:

b. He earned out his advance, since sales surely exceeded expectations.

If I am correct with a and b, he took a financial hit on each return.

However, if Keyes sold the rights outright, then it would be more the situation with a farmer who sells watermelons to a supermarket chain. There is no direct financial hit to the farmer when watermelons are returned. But the return rate must directly or indirectly impact how much he or she can get for next year's crop.

I'm guessing that people who market their eBooks through Amazon, without going through a major publisher, often don't like directly losing money for each return. But if returns were disallowed, fewer people would buy the eBook in the first place. And if Amazon absorbed the immediate loss on a return, it would still impact the author in the long term, just as with the farmer.

_________________
* I recall the center city Philadelphia department stores having had large book sections.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by DNSB

There was a complaint in a fanzine back in late 1959/early 1960 after Flowers for Algernon was published in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction about the author overusing mis-spelling and grammar errors.

That's hilarious that someone actually complained. I guess times haven't changed much.