Authors are protesting Amazon's 'read and return' e-book policy

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Cactus Chef

I'm not opposed to at least some kind of return policy. I had to help my mother return a Kindle book recently that she was strong-armed into buying, because Amazon search on a Kindle seems to bend over backwards to hide free books from the results. She wanted to grab Moby Dick to read for a reader's group, and despite the fact that the book is in Public Domain and has several free copies available.

Well, people should know Amazon isn't the only place and they want to sell books. Gutenberg.org was founded in 1972 and has over 70,000 public domain by USA terms ebooks.
Amazon exists to sell stuff.

Some short stories where author is alive or died recently may be public domain in USA due to how magazines worked.

There are more likely to be free ebooks in copyright on other sellers, like Smashwords, such as first book of a series. It's difficult to do that on Amazon via ordinary KDP.

There are number of sites with public domain (varies by country) ebooks including this site.

If you can find an Author on Amazon via one of their books and go to "Author page" and then select "Price: low to high", but otherwise Amazon searches are poisoned by sponsored results and if you search other than default useless "featured" many results vanish. Also results seem to have semi-random unrelated things.

It's getting harder to find things on Amazon and Google or Duck Duck Go. They seem to be determined to return as many results as possible.

[Deskisamess]

It's getting harder to find things on Amazon...

Indeed, but that's another conversation. No name off brand junk seems to be taking over. It reminds of what happened to eBay. And speaking of eBay, my last two purchases from there were drop shipped from Amazon.

[graycyn]

I returned a book once when I realized that it was a duplicate. It was an situation where there were both omnibus editions and single editions and I got confused. I did the return quickly, as soon as I realized.

I had three other book purchases I *wanted* to return, BADLY, but I was well outside of the window, having had them for a year before I actually read any and found that all three were pirate copies, sigh. I complained, but as far as I know, Amazon is still selling them, sigh.

One hopes that Amazon will notice accounts that return large numbers of ebooks in short periods and consider taking action against those accounts.

[graycyn]

Oh, and there absolutely ARE legit reasons someone might wish to return.

I gifted a requested book about the card game bridge to a relative for Christmas. I know NOTHING about bridge, so I assumed she had read any reviews, knew what she wanted when she put it on her Christmas list. She has played the game a long time and has asked for books about bridge in the past.

She finally got around to reading this supposed book on bridge a few months after the holiday. As it turned out, the tips on bridge were basically: PRAY.

We both got a laugh out of it and the book was only $5. But yeah, that was essentially a deliberate rip-off by the author, who, one hopes, *will* be penalized by many, MANY returns of THAT particular title.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by graycyn

...a deliberate rip-off by the author, who, one hopes, *will* be penalized by many, MANY returns of THAT particular title.

I certainly hope that Amazon keeps track of suppliers of products that have very high return rates and drops them along with the customers who return excessively.

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Amazon offers Look Inside and free sample download. Searching the author isn't hard. There should only be returns on paper for physical damage /unreadable print (Just once I saw a Grishon paper back so over inked as to be nearly unreadable) and none on ebooks.

You can still get scammed.

There is a trilogy I've loved, but the ebooks, while available in the UK, have not been available for sale in the US. So, I waited. Some good few years as it turned out. I didn't want to do anything untoward to acquire them. Then one day, I happened to search and there they were in the Kindle Store!

I had no reason to do a look inside or read reviews. I already knew I liked the books! So I bought. Only to find a year later, when I thought I'd break in my brand new Oasis 2 with a re-read of these books, that they were pirate copies and NO pleasure to read because of the numerous typos and errors.

Naturally, Amazon was not going to take a return at that point, though I would've hoped they'd have actually removed the books from further sale after receiving my complaint.... But no.

Anyway, there's good reasons for returns being allowed, and good reasons for not allowing returns.

I think returns should be allowed, but they absolutely also should be flagging accounts that are doing a LOT of returns and hopefully, after reasonable review, to be sure the returns are NOT due to quality issues, putting such accounts on probation or closing them entirely. Because anyone doing this kind of thing has the mindset of abusing the system. They won't stop at free ebooks. They are the customers you don't want.

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I certainly hope that Amazon keeps track of suppliers of products that have very high return rates and drops them along with the customers who return excessively.

I hope too.

Update: Well, I decided to search for the pirate books I unknowingly purchased back in 2016 and which, having checked on occasionally, were still being sold on Amazon for years after my complaint in 2017, but it looks like they've pulled TWO of the three, so there's hope. But it sure took awhile before they got pulled, in spite of many bad reviews for typos.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

So reviews are untrustworthy as they are left by idiots:

Yes.

Yet it is kinder to get money back on a book you've read because leaving a negative review would be too damaging:

Yes. I suspect most people aren't quite as...let's say, cynical as I am, about Amazon reviews. Or Amazon reviewers, for that matter. You seriously going to tell everyone here that you've never noticed a dearth of gray matter, in book reviews? Come on, please.

Got it

I was a paid, commercial book reviewer, a while back. Now, no...nobody reading Amazon's reviews would know that--but I know how to write a review and I damn-sure know how to write one that's scathing.

Hitch

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Amazon offers Look Inside and free sample download. Searching the author isn't hard. There should only be returns on paper for physical damage /unreadable print (Just once I saw a Grishon paper back so over inked as to be nearly unreadable) and none on ebooks.

A couple of weeks ago I bought an ebook, read it, and decided I really like the author and series. According to the title, the book was the first in a series, so I bought the second book. Imagine my surprise when I opened the second book to read it and saw a message saying that the manuscript of the second book had been accidentally uploaded into the first book. The message invited me to "refresh (your) updated content in Book One". Unfortunately, there is no option for me to "refresh" the book, as it's not marked as having an update available.

So, Quoth...should I still be blocked from returning the book? I did look at the sample before I bought the book, and there was no indication of any problem in it.

Shari

[Tarana]

I like the return policy. I've returned probably 10 books in 5 or 6 years. Either accidental purchase or turned out not to be what was advertised. Amazon should simply pay attention to those who are repeatedly returning books just like they do those who return a lot of merchandise.

[Tarana]

Originally Posted by shalym

A couple of weeks ago I bought an ebook, read it, and decided I really like the author and series. According to the title, the book was the first in a series, so I bought the second book. Imagine my surprise when I opened the second book to read it and saw a message saying that the manuscript of the second book had been accidentally uploaded into the first book. The message invited me to "refresh (your) updated content in Book One". Unfortunately, there is no option for me to "refresh" the book, as it's not marked as having an update available.

So, Quoth...should I still be blocked from returning the book? I did look at the sample before I bought the book, and there was no indication of any problem in it.

Shari

In this case, I would directly contact Amazon not only for a return of your money but to report this as a scam.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by shalym

… Imagine my surprise when I opened the second book to read it and saw a message saying that the manuscript of the second book had been accidentally uploaded into the first book. The message invited me to "refresh (your) updated content in Book One". Unfortunately, there is no option for me to "refresh" the book, as it's not marked as having an update available.

So, Quoth...should I still be blocked from returning the book? I did look at the sample before I bought the book, and there was no indication of any problem in it.

Even if there was no return policy, in UK and EU the law would insist on a refund. Not as advertised and not fit for purpose.
Sellers contracts are trumped by National laws. Called the Sale of Goods Act in some countries.

I also think the "one click" no shopping basket (unique for me here in Ireland for Amazon ebooks, no other seller I've used and no other Amazon sales) might break intention of most European "distance selling laws".

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yes.

Yes. I suspect most people aren't quite as...let's say, cynical as I am, about Amazon reviews. Or Amazon reviewers, for that matter. You seriously going to tell everyone here that you've never noticed a dearth of gray matter, in book reviews? Come on, please.

I was a paid, commercial book reviewer, a while back. Now, no...nobody reading Amazon's reviews would know that--but I know how to write a review and I damn-sure know how to write one that's scathing.

Hitch

I will say that your argument is less than convincing. I could fertilize my garden with it (if I had a garden and cared to fertilize).

In the end, you are arguing that you should be able to read for free and pay only for those you like. That is an argument pirates occasionally use and is a surprising attitude coming from someone in the book biz.

Incidentally, I don't remember seeing an answer (and if I missed it, I do apologize): Do you walk out of a theater demanding a refund if the movie you saw sucked? Did you return your copy of CCR's Mardi Gras after realizing there were only two good songs on it? In the days of paper books, were you in the habit of returning your half finished paper books, explaining your problems with structure or murkiness of themes to the cashier in order to justify your demand for a refund?

[issybird]

Forcing equivalencies really doesn’t work. Tradpub isn’t the equivalent of selfpub and virtual books aren’t the equivalent of real. And then it gets worse: digital books aren’t the equivalent of digital music or digital video, nor especially are self-pubbed books to be lumped with Hollywood productions or studio music. In short, the reader of self-pubbed books could need a few more protections from carp material than the theater-goer.

This is also ignoring the issues that returning Kindle books for whatever is legit according to the purveyor, and the issue that said purveyor would undoubtedly rather sell a lot of books with the random return than sell a limited number of safe bets.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by issybird

Tradpub isn’t the equivalent of selfpub...

But they are treated equally according to the return policy. You and others keep focusing on self-pubbed, but the return policy goes for all ebooks.

In short, the reader of self-pubbed books could need a few more protections from carp material than the theater-goer.

Nonsense. Caveat emptor.

There is more than enough information out there to make a good judgement before buying a book. And if there is not, then maybe you shouldn't put yourself up as the guinea pig.

Nobody deserves to be insulated from the risk of paying for entertainment that they didn't enjoy in the way they thought they would.

This is also ignoring the issues that returning Kindle books for whatever is legit according to the purveyor...

That it is legit is the whole point of the story I linked to. The purpose of this thread.

Let's say Amazon's return limit is two books (I know two books is okay, because I have returned two books). Using your logic, a person could read a trilogy and only pay for one book. If the limit is two in a month, that could happen every month.

That example wouldn't violate the letter of the return policy, but would violate the spirit of it.