Unable to Book Ban,Library is defunded

[ZodWallop]

To everybody saying that a majority of the population voted to defund the library over some gay books (and that WAS the reason for the defunding, as per every news source I could find, including conservative sources and local sources), these were small, local elections with very small turnout. I know we just went through the midterms, but both votes in question were from before then.

On small elections like this it is easy enough to whip up a small group to vote the way you want and even then it was a split. (Again, see the libertarians voting to defund school districts in New Hampshire.)

They were successful, sure. But there's no way you are going to convince me that vote represented the will of the majority of people in Jamestown.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

You cannot call more than a half of population 'bigots', it doesn't work this way.

Sure you can. I disagree with 'half the population' having supported this, as already mentioned. But anyway, if you vote to defund your library due to their inclusion of a small amount of LGBT books, you are a bigot, according to any reasonable definition.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Except not all and a relatively slim majority want it. Stop pretending like this was a 80/20 or even 70/30 split. The 45% who voted to keep the library are just as much the bosses as the 55% who voted against and 10% is a slim margin to hang a hat on any sort of mandate of the people.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) the majority gets to decide whether the library is funded by their tax dollars. And a 56% to 44% margin is not that small of a majority — 12 percentage points. And this was the second vote this year, they also attempted to pass the "millage" during the primary election, where it failed by (I believe) 66% to 34%. So even though they had a chance to remake their case, it still failed.

Do you think the minority should get their way in this case?

[haertig]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I'm offended!

Sorry. I just couldn't help myself.

I knew you had a sense of humor.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by meeera

"Ideologues" who are doing exactly what they are supposed to do - engage in best-practice professional librarianship according to their parent association's professional standards and guidelines.

And the voters did exactly what they should do. Decide if they think the Library Director made the right decision. If they felt she didn't, and they felt they had no other recourse, then voting down the library's funding is perfectly valid. Or do you think the majority of taxpayers should be forced to pay for what they don't want because some "professional association" deems it should be so?

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

To everybody saying that a majority of the population voted to defund the library over some gay books (and that WAS the reason for the defunding, as per every news source I could find, including conservative sources and local sources), these were small, local elections with very small turnout. I know we just went through the midterms, but both votes in question were from before then.

The 2018 Jamestown, Michigan census shows the town had 8,618 people. I don't know if the population went up or down since 2018. I do know that about 5,500 citizens voted for and against the library millage. That's NOT a small turnout, especially when you consider that, of the (approximately) 3,000+ citizens who didn't vote, a certain percentage were children not of voting age.

But it's beside the point. Even if the turnout had been light, that doesn't invalidate the election.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Unfortunately (or fortunately) the majority gets to decide whether the library is funded by their tax dollars. And a 56% to 44% margin is not that small of a majority — 12 percentage points. And this was the second vote this year, they also attempted to pass the "millage" during the primary election, where it failed by (I believe) 66% to 34%. So even though they had a chance to remake their case, it still failed.

Do you think the minority should get their way in this case?

Again and for the nth time in this thread no one is saying this isn’t how democracy works.

However this recent vote is hardly an indicator of a massive support for this especially when you consider that earlier vote you like mentioning which had a bigger majority. Put simply yes the vote passed but that passing should not be taken as an indication that the thing voted on is a signpost to follow for the future as some would seem to believe.

[Aleron Ives]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Again and for the nth time in this thread no one is saying this isn’t how democracy works.

It sounds like you are.

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Except not all and a relatively slim majority want it. Stop pretending like this was a 80/20 or even 70/30 split. The 45% who voted to keep the library are just as much the bosses as the 55% who voted against and 10% is a slim margin to hang a hat on any sort of mandate of the people.

Unless there is a law saying that a 3/5 or 2/3 vote is required to change library funding, then 51% is the only threshold the people need to meet to vote for defunding. Is it a stupid decision? Yes, but saying it's not a large majority is meaningless when the result is the same. If you want to prevent knee-jerk voter reactions, then you pass a law requiring a 3/5 or 2/3 vote to make changes. Until then, a slim majority of voters is free to make bad decisions.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Aleron Ives

It sounds like you are.


Unless there is a law saying that a 3/5 or 2/3 vote is required to change library funding, then 51% is the only threshold the people need to meet to vote for defunding. Is it a stupid decision? Yes, but saying it's not a large majority is meaningless when the result is the same. If you want to prevent knee-jerk voter reactions, then you pass a law requiring a 3/5 or 2/3 vote to make changes. Until then, a slim majority of voters is free to make bad decisions.

Here I’ll make this dead simple for you.

A motion can pass by a single vote. This is democracy and no one here has said otherwise.

Pretending that a motion which passes by a single vote is wildly popular and to quote “doing what your bosses want” is disingenuous at best. Which is what has sparked this sub conversation. Those other voters are an elected officials boss just as much as those in the majority.

Unless you want to live in a world where politics is looked at as a win/lose game.

[Aleron Ives]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Pretending that a motion which passes by a single vote is wildly popular and to quote “doing what your bosses want” is disingenuous at best. Which is what has sparked this sub conversation. Those other voters are an elected officials boss just as much as those in the majority.

Yes, the motion is not wildly popular, but if the motion only requires a simple majority to pass, then being wildly popular is not a requirement, so it doesn't matter. Yes, the people in the minority are also "the bosses", but democracy is majority rule, and the majority has ruled. No pretending is required.

[j.p.s]

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

Winston S Churchill, 1947 November 11

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Pretending that a motion which passes by a single vote is wildly popular and to quote “doing what your bosses want” is disingenuous at best. Which is what has sparked this sub conversation. Those other voters are an elected officials boss just as much as those in the majority.

Yes, exactly. I suppose a 51/49% vote would still defund the library, Just don't go trying to sell it as a strong majority.

And in the end the end. These people are going to run their town as they see fit. I'm more about why people feel so comfortable discriminating against gay people. Do they learn nothing from history?

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yes, exactly. I suppose a 51/49% vote would still defund the library, Just don't go trying to sell it as a strong majority.

And in the end the end. These people are going to run their town as they see fit. I'm more about why people feel so comfortable discriminating against gay people. Do they learn nothing from history?

Apparently too many are comfortable with mob rule and don’t understand or are willfully ignoring that language has nuance in discussion even if in practice of voting it’s simple majority to pass a motion.

[issybird]

There are two aspects that are striking to me that I don’t think have been touched on.

First, this is not how democracy works; alternatively, it’s how democracy works badly. It’s one thing for a scant majority to elect a person or pass a law, because those are zero-sum games. But a library! When 51% can dictate what the 49% think, we’re in scary times. There’s a political term for it, but for forum purposes I’ll just call it control. Why wouldn’t a library choose to be representative of an entire community? Those who didn’t like them could just exercise their own freedoms not to read the books, but instead they’d rather infringe on the freedoms of others. Freedom for me but not for thee.

And second, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! The voters would really prefer not to have a library at all, a place where their kids can get books and their elders get warm or exchange a cheery hello to stave off loneliness? A place where the community, individually and severally, can go for information? Really tells the story; it’s sheer fear of knowledge and how it empowers.

What has happened to kindness and tolerance? How does someone else’s essential being have any effect on one’s own?

[issybird]

I’m going to exercise my prerogative to close this thread, having had the last word. Feel free to think of me as a hypocrite. But it’s the point where people are repeating themselves; minds won’t be changed. Those who feel otherwise are free to carry the discussion to the P&R forum.