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Old 11-13-2019, 12:53 PM   #316
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And they are probably right. They are playing right into the hands of Amazon. I don't believe for a second that they mind the market power of Amazon. Ultimately it matters little who sells the books for them as long as they get sold.
Any producer is wary of their middlemen/retail gaining too much power.
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Old 11-13-2019, 01:01 PM   #317
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Only overdrive cannot exist without publisher or library. Libraries don't depend on overdrive and will still exist with a limited list of publishers. They are existing right now with a limited list of publishers.
You're contradicting yourself right here, libraries require publishers period full stop. Can they survive on a "limited list of publishers"? Yes, but that wasn't the position put forward. And they'd absolutely not survive on academic publishers alone.

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They cannot afford to maximize profits at all costs. Publishers are not always doing things in the best interest of profit. Penguin Random, for example, is a lot nicer to libraries than Macmillan, even before this current mess. For profit? Nah, don't think so. They simply are more interested in a good relationship with the libraries. Libraries are important, even if they are less capitalistic and more socialistic in nature.
Which is why I didn't say they had no other guides on them. More likely Penguin Random House feels they can maximize profits with their approach. Just because this approach happens to coincide with what the libraries want, does not mean PRH isn't making the choice with profit in mind.

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You are the only one calling it "depriving the public of a part of their service". Actually, if they wouldn't boycott they are depriving the public of equal access during the embargo time. I am not sure how exactly they will go about it - it could be interpreted that after 8 weeks a book out of embargo can be bought, or that any book subject to the embargo at the beginning is a no buy forever. I suspect it is the former, because the librarians argument for the boycott is the inability to meet demand of their patrons. And no, your argument that one copy is better than no copy, is incorrect. It is contrary to the equal access for everybody in a timely fashion. There is also a chance that Macmillan changes tack sometime and stops further embargos.
Sorry if I'm the only one calling a spade a spade while others insist upon referring to it as only a boycott without focusing on the affects of the boycott. The libraries should be rather familiar with the written language, their statement has been "We will no longer purchase ebooks from Macmillan". That's rather cut and dried, no matter how much you wish to try and romanticize it and the libraries stance with flowery imaginings of things not said.

Define "timely fashion", with physical books it's possible you'll wait just as long if not longer. Should we then criticize the libraries for not providing the public with books in a timely fashion? As there is no requirement to read a book within the first 8 weeks, or even the first 8 years of its release your argument for "timely fashion" is absurd, and has no relevance when the libraries are opting to never provide the ebook to patrons, as opposed to a limited availability which opens to a wider one later.

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Stop providing ebooks forever or temporarily after release? Sure they depend on publishers to provide ebooks, but that really is not getting them any money until a library purchases a license. Shouldn't OD complain about libraries for planning their boycott thingy?
Hardly, as mentioned already Overdrive can't survive without both publishers and more so libraries. They know who butters their bread so to speak, it's in their interest to make sure the libraries continue to be happy.

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Apparently they are not buying enough, or you wouldn't have people that buy ebooks go to the library to consume Big5 ebooks without buying for themselves.
No matter how successful you are, or how good your product, or how much the public in general loves you and your product, there are always people who will try to get it for free if they can, through legal means like the library, or illegal means like piracy (please note these are two different things and I am still not linking them together save that both are means of obtaining digital goods for free).
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:50 AM   #318
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Which is why I didn't say they had no other guides on them. More likely Penguin Random House feels they can maximize profits with their approach. Just because this approach happens to coincide with what the libraries want, does not mean PRH isn't making the choice with profit in mind.
So what is it? For a publisher's best interest concerning maximizing profit is it embargo or no embargo? It cannot be both at the same time. Macmillan believes in embargo while PRH opposes limited supply at release. One of them is wrong, you pick. Except you already said that both have profit as top priority.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:13 AM   #319
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So what is it? For a publisher's best interest concerning maximizing profit is it embargo or no embargo? It cannot be both at the same time. Macmillan believes in embargo while PRH opposes limited supply at release. One of them is wrong, you pick. Except you already said that both have profit as top priority.
For Macmillan they believe that the embargo is the way to go. For PRH they donít. Theyíve both got their own figures to make these decisions.

I donít believe Iíve said Macmillan was flat out right to do this, Iíve said I support their right to make this choice and I can see their reasoning. The libraries and those who canít or wonít buy new releases might not like the decision but most of that group isnít going to affect the publishers bottom line by a significant amount from what the publisher has decided to do.

I also support PRHs right to make their choice which the libraries etc are likely to love.

If youíd care to give me both publishers data, which I appreciate you canít because neither will release it, Iíd say what I would do.

I have also defended the libraries right to raise awareness in the press about the issue and to try to educate their patrons about the issue. That is their business after all though they are a non profit.

What I do not support is a library refusing to supply the public with the books from one publisher indefinitely (again I refer you to their statements which do not include an end for not purchasing) while also trying to whinge that the publisher is the one making it harder to read new books.

Nor do I support the libraries very intentional misrepresentation of the terms laid out by Macmillan in an attempt to garner sympathy. Itís lying through omission. I donít need the nitty gritty breakdown of the finances but to leave out the broader details is a very good way to make me suspicious of your (the libraries) motives.

Macmillan presented the broader picture. They omitted the nitty gritty financial details but Iím going to assume they do not want to lose money, and they believe this is the right path.

In comparing their release to the libraries statements itís rather clear the libraries were depending on pathos based arguments while the publishers presented logos based ones. As the libraries have already tried to deceive me in this situation Iím inclined to overlook their claims in favor of those of Macmillan.

Iíd cover overdrive but their bias in wanting ebooks to be unrestricted to the libraries colors everything they say. And Iíve already talked about their using statistics without providing the raw numbers.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:14 PM   #320
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My library is also stopping getting the Macmillan digital books; not sure about the printed books.

The library stated the terms of "1 copy" for the 'library' & a wait of 8 weeks for other copies. I think that the library is justified in being upset about the '1 copy' as the library is a county library with around 22 local branches; would prefer that the '1 copy' be for each branch.

The library also has a blurb on the home page that updates some statistics. As of yesterday, the library loaned out a bit over 1.897 million digital copies of books. Looks to be lots of usage of digital books.

Now, if the school libraries also join in not buying Macmillan printed or ebooks & the teachers not using Macmillan text books, Macmillan will have a loss.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:36 PM   #321
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In comparing their release to the libraries statements itís rather clear the libraries were depending on pathos based arguments while the publishers presented logos based ones. As the libraries have already tried to deceive me in this situation Iím inclined to overlook their claims in favor of those of Macmillan.
On both sides it is about money. The publisher wants to sell more and allow less borrowing during the first 8 weeks. They want to make more money, makes sense. The library has a limited budget. When they spend money, they need to make it count. They are not maximizing profit, but have to maximize benefits with a fixed amount of spending money. Also makes sense from a pure business point of view. The library could just play along and do the 1 copy for 8 weeks, then buy more. But that would be against their duty to maximize benefits as they would disadvantage the patrons that cannot jump out of line and buy the book. So for 8 weeks the only ones getting access to the book are the 4ish lucky ones first in line, and the impatient ones capable and willing to buy instead after seeing the huge wait list. These are the facts we have to play with. It really doesn't matter how the library does their cost and benefit calculation. The 8 weeks may or may not matter in the calculation, but we don't have their numbers and formulas either. So just assume the 8 weeks can make a difference. The sensible solution would be to get NO copy for 8 weeks, then buy according to demand. Everybody will be happy, nobody is disadvantaged. Maximum benefits for the budget. Except they have to take access away from those first in line. Is their benefit worth more than the disadvantage of the ones waiting? The library is between a rock and a hard place.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:03 AM   #322
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Except you’re neglecting that the license they get in those first 8 weeks is cheaper and perpetual. Meaning in the long run it becomes more like a physical book with the advantages of an ebook.

Those 4ish people and anyone wanting to explore the backlog of an author in years to come would be disadvantaged unless the authors backlist continued to be massively popular such as Rowling. Thanks to Overdrive we already know some authors ebooks disappear from the library.

Again I’ll point out that not providing any ebooks for those 8 weeks which are unbiased in who gets them as much as possible still serves their community better than not having any for those 8 weeks. Especially as there is no conditional requirement on the license purchased in the initial 8 weeks. Yes they are serving less than with other systems but that is still more than 0.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:17 AM   #323
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The grass always looks greener from the other side of the fence.

I am sure it will get sorted out sooner or later.

If Macmillan decides to change terms again, I do hope they keep at least the first copy perpetual. Regardless if it is bought within the first 8 weeks or not.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:19 AM   #324
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Libraries never by enough of popular books anyway. Yes, a FEW very lucky patrons get to read the popular book first thing. The rest are waiting anyway.
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:10 AM   #325
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The grass always looks greener from the other side of the fence.

I am sure it will get sorted out sooner or later.

If Macmillan decides to change terms again, I do hope they keep at least the first copy perpetual. Regardless if it is bought within the first 8 weeks or not.
Why would MacMillian do that? That would make them worse off than before.
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:16 AM   #326
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Why would MacMillian do that? That would make them worse off than before.
Why would they change thing? If they don't get desired results, they may choose to do nothing or try something else. If they get very good results, they may tweak the system even more.
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Old 11-15-2019, 01:08 PM   #327
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Why would they change thing? If they don't get desired results, they may choose to do nothing or try something else. If they get very good results, they may tweak the system even more.
Why would they give libraries a benefit and get nothing in return? It seems very unlikely to me. Compromise is each side gives a little, not one side takes while the other side gives.
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