Hey, Workshop--ISO a browser-based eReader with USABLE annotation tools.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Yep, Google Docs completely mangles the Styles in your document, and reexporting out of it creates a gobbledygook mess of code which doesn't represent the original at all.



I don't see why not. I've used it in proofing stages, where I've:

• Completed initial ebook/EPUB.
• Convert EPUB->DOCX.
  
  • Calibre or other tools.
• Upload DOCX to online word processor.
• Give author link.
• They proof/do whatever.
  
  • Make minor adjustments to text, add a Foreword, leave comments.
    
  • Answered/Solved comments auto-email everyone who needs to be notified.
    

Then when we iron out all the final pieces...

• I export + do my usual cleanup

treating it just as if it was "a fresh book" file, except 90%+ of the groundwork was already done.

If not much changed:

• The code difference merging is very simple.

If a lot has changed:

• I treat it like a fresh file.
  
  • (It would still be MILES ahead of the low-quality mess originally submitted from authors.)
    

But I mostly do EPUB-First/HTML-First workflows...

If you had DOCX-First workflows, you'd do all your cleanup at that stage, then you'd treat that online version—or a DOCX close to it—as the ultimate "source file".

- - -

From my initial reading, it seemed like Hitch wanted this for a PROOFING stage, and I assume it was to:

• Show author "final" copy.
• Have them comment/proof on it.
• Keep the conversion team+author in sync.

The EPUB annotation/commenting tools aren't there yet, but the DOCX/ODT/PDF ones are much more mature.

- - -



Collabora Office is the LibreOffice-based equivalent. It runs on Online/Mobile too.

Good thing is, it treats your files just as LibreOffice would:

• No mangling of Styles
• No destruction of the underlying document.

You also get:

• Full privacy
  
  • Keeping your documents out of Google's grubby little hands.
    
  • (Can even self-host your own server if you wanted.)
    

And, as power users, you still get full access to the full power of the entire office suite. Not some dumbed-down version that's missing a ton of features.

- - -

Side Note: If you want some more info, see their recent talk given at:

• LibreOffice Conference 2022: "Collabora & LibreOffice: Working together to make Open Source rock"

- - -



Pfffff. Women!!! Who needs ’em?

Hi, TEX:

I just don't see how that would expedite editing the e-books. Sure, it would mean that our customers would not have to download an EPUB reader; but then again, that would also mean that they wouldn't have any idea what their e-books look like. At best, this is a mixed result.

What I was seeking, is some functionality that would work more or less like what we already have for PDFs. We have a variety of options, for our customers, vis-à-vis PDFs. For example, our customers can use the commenting function in Adobe acrobat reader, to leave us edits and comments in their PDFs. Depending upon how clean those comments are, we can also import those same comments into InDesign. We have other ways, other methods, of importing edits made by customers, into InDesign as well.

This newest functionality that I was discussing in this thread, enables our customers to do nothing more but click the filename; open up a browser window; and leave us edits and comments, in that browser. They don't need software or anything else other than a computer. That's a boon for our tech-challenged (more than usual) customers.

That's pretty much what I was looking for. I don't see a real possibility that we would export the kind of EPUB that we make into word — don't forget to use number of the EPUB that we make are fairly complex. I do not see them exporting to word readily, easily or usable.

But, I'll contemplate it!!!

Hitch
(Dictated to DNS, but not read.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Reading this thread reminded me of something I used the '90s, as a result I ended up here ==>> Lotus Notes refuses to die, again…

The comments are interesting; contrary to what one might expect, many (most perhaps) are complimentary.

BR

OMG, right? And people STILL haven't made anything else work like that. Its fans (and haters!) are legion.

Hitch

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I know that apparently, BOOKARI has something that may work, but the licensing terms for that are pretty rough. Plus it's licensed per user, which means I would spend my days adding new licenses, closing them and so on. Or the alternative, go broke NOT removing licenses, lol.

FWIW, I wouldn't go the Bookari route. I used to use their Android reader app and had paid for it, and eventually, they stopped updating it in the Play Store after Android 10 came out and broke their app. They did offer a download from their website that worked, for a while. But it has not been updated since and we are on Android 13. The download link is EXPIRED.

I would NOT advise anyone to give them any money at this point!

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by graycyn

FWIW, I wouldn't go the Bookari route. I used to use their Android reader app and had paid for it, and eventually, they stopped updating it in the Play Store after Android 10 came out and broke their app. They did offer a download from their website that worked, for a while. But it has not been updated since and we are on Android 13. The download link is EXPIRED.

I would NOT advise anyone to give them any money at this point!

RATS. What do they say, when you kvetch to them?

(Thanks for the heads' up!)

Hitch

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by Hitch

OMG, right? And people STILL haven't made anything else work like that. Its fans (and haters!) are legion.

Hitch

Our use of Notes was tangentially related to your problem. I ran a 'special projects' group at a financial services company, we were tasked with getting the business policy & procedures documents out of MVS/DISSOS onto "Anything that gets the mainframe IT people out of the loop."

We used LN to manage the workflow, the manuals themselves were wrangled into WordPerfect documents (with the help of IBM) and published as PDF.

BR

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I just don't see how that would expedite editing the e-books. Sure, it would mean that our customers would not have to download an EPUB reader; but then again, that would also mean that they wouldn't have any idea what their e-books look like. At best, this is a mixed result.

This is where I'm confused.

This is how I'm imagining the workflows:

Method A

• Get original file. (DOCX)
• Edit/Proof book. (DOCX)
  
  • Author + Team = Multiple Rounds of proofing.
• Create ebook. (EPUB)

Method B

• Get original file. (DOCX)
• Create ebook. (EPUB)
• Edit/Proof book. (EPUB / EPUB->DOCX)
  
  • Author + Team = Multiple Rounds of proofing.

Method A is what most publishers do.

Method B is what I mostly do.

It's just shifting where the editing stage ultimately slots in.

With Method A, you have:

• The Editor modifying the DOCX + cleaning up most of the author's junk.
• That DOCX gets split into InDesign + EPUB.

With Method B, you have:

• The Converter modifying the DOCX + cleaning the junk.
• That gets in the Editor's hands.
  
  • They're more efficient, because the document is already clean + consistently Styled.

From what I gathered, at the Proofing/Editing stage, you'd want Author+Editing team working together, being able to see the "finalized" text in the browser.

THIS is where the browser-based word processors would slot in—then, you'd get all the mature advantages of word processors NOW:

• Comments
  
  • Marking/Replying
• Tracked Changes
  
  • Accepting/Denying
• Keeping all parties in sync.
• Easy A/B Comparison
• [...]

And while the EPUB->DOCX wouldn't be an exact replica of how the final ebook would look, it could be a "rough approximation".

- - -

With EPUB Annotations, all it would do is create a Method C:

• Get original file. (DOCX)
• Create ebook. (EPUB)
• Edit/Proof book. (EPUB)
  
  • Author + Team = Multiple Rounds of proofing.

I don't see how it would help merge those author-comments + author-changes back into the finalized EPUB that much better over Method B.

- - -

Side Note: Of course, I welcome all Web Annotation tools/enhancements!

Like I wrote in that 2022 thread, the current landscape is a mess! We definitely need more interoperability between all Annotation tools!

- - -

Originally Posted by Hitch

For example, our customers can use the commenting function in Adobe acrobat reader, to leave us edits and comments in their PDFs. Depending upon how clean those comments are, we can also import those same comments into InDesign.

Hmmm, interesting.

So you're telling me a PDF Highlight + PDF Comment can be merged back into the text somehow?

(And... the stuff I explained would be a browser-based DOCX Highlight + DOCX Comment + you'd get Tracked Changes.)

Originally Posted by Hitch

We have other ways, other methods, of importing edits made by customers, into InDesign as well.

Hmmm... We'll definitely have to chat about that some time.

Originally Posted by Hitch

[...] the kind of EPUB that we make into word — don't forget to use number of the EPUB that we make are fairly complex. I do not see them exporting to word readily, easily or usable.

Heh, yeah, I forget... not everybody creates perfectly crisp HTML like me!

Conversion between formats and merging back changes becomes much harder+unstable once you start drifting away from that ideal.

- - -

Side Note: And, as we discussed in those previous threads, every single input->output format/conversion brings its own unique challenges.

- - -

Originally Posted by Hitch

(Dictated to DNS, but not read.)

Not too sure what that means, but okay.

[BetterRed]

At a guess Dragon something, from Nuance.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

At a guess Dragon something, from Nuance.

Red?

Whut? Firstly, this would cost our customers a small fortune, they'd have to learn to use it and they'd never make it work right. Not following?

(FYI, I use Dragon every week. I cannot see MY customers surviving it, TBH.)

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

This is where I'm confused.

This is how I'm imagining the workflows:

Method A

• Get original file. (DOCX)
• Edit/Proof book. (DOCX)
  
  • Author + Team = Multiple Rounds of proofing.
• Create ebook. (EPUB)

Method B

• Get original file. (DOCX)
• Create ebook. (EPUB)
• Edit/Proof book. (EPUB / EPUB->DOCX)
  
  • Author + Team = Multiple Rounds of proofing.

Method A is what most publishers do.

Method B is what I mostly do.

We really don't do either of those.

We take the docx file, OR the PDF, or this or that (powepoint, Canva, you name it) and we clean it. If it's DOCX, we clean it largely using HTML. I'm the only one that really cleans in Word and that's only because I got spoiled by Toxaris' ePUBtools, which sadly, no longer work.

Nonetheless, it's:

1. DOCX (or whatever) to HTML.
2. HTML to ePUB.'
3. ePUB to customer.
4. PROOF FORM to us
5. We make the edits.
6. Revised ePUB to the customers.

IF the book is being edited or proofed by one of our editors, that's done before step 1. We don't give Word files to our customers, for ebooks. It's just too much brain-damage to have to reclean, style, etc. a DOCX file that comes back to make it BACK into HTML and BACK into ePUB. I can't think of a single eBookmaker here that wouldn't quit on me if I suggested it. None of them are being paid to make the book twice.

Not ONE of our customers, seriously, uses styles and headings. And for those that send us other file types, NOT word files, but everything else, now we're in even deeper kimchee. And let's not forget our Pages users, etc.

I would end up with clean, styled Docx files, from the ePUBs, then interspersed with "normal" and god-only-knows-what-else jammed in there. It would take longer to find all the cruft and fix it than it is to do what we're doing.

It's just shifting where the editing stage ultimately slots in.

With Method A, you have:

• The Editor modifying the DOCX + cleaning up most of the author's junk.
• That DOCX gets split into InDesign + EPUB.

What "editor" are you talking about here? YOU? Yes, Tex, I know that you compulsively clean and edit your customers' files, but we do not. Not sans compensation for that work and 99% of our customers won't pay for us to run around and clean/edit their files, other than formatting. We have one edit that we make daily, which is the ubiquitous "forward/foreward" (yes, really) to "foreword." That's it. That I do because I can't abide having that error so close to the front of the book and visible in the frontmatter.

With Method B, you have:

• The Converter modifying the DOCX + cleaning the junk.
• That gets in the Editor's hands.
  
  • They're more efficient, because the document is already clean + consistently Styled.

From what I gathered, at the Proofing/Editing stage, you'd want Author+Editing team working together, being able to see the "finalized" text in the browser.

There seems to be a person, a role in here, that we do not use/have, this "editor" persona. If you mean you, great for you, but we don't have that role. We have bookmakers and customers, period.

On top of that, this "They're more efficient, because the document is already clean + consistently Styled" only lasts UNTIL the author gets their hands on it. We deal with this same issue, in a Word file, over and over, in our print process, which is somewhat like you've described. SAME PROBLEM. Some of the Word files we get back--which are meant to slide into INDD, seamlessly, and integrate the changes, are SO EFFED UP that it's safer and better to, yes, do the edits by hand, instead of risking corrupting the entire INDD file. Seriously--this happens every week.

THIS is where the browser-based word processors would slot in—then, you'd get all the mature advantages of word processors NOW:

• Comments
  
  • Marking/Replying
• Tracked Changes
  
  • Accepting/Denying
• Keeping all parties in sync.
• Easy A/B Comparison
• [...]

And while the EPUB->DOCX wouldn't be an exact replica of how the final ebook would look, it could be a "rough approximation".

Maybe, but I still think that a browser-based ePUB reader, allowing the customer to slap their edits in there (which, ideally, would also be counted!!!), and the bookmaker being able to easily see and make the changes, is better than the alternatives. We get edits that are literally incomprehensible, or completely daft, like "remove 'the' on page 37." Seriously, yes, we get those. IF the author were writing that in this hypothetical in-browser reader, that might actually show the bookmaker where that edit could be.
- - -

With EPUB Annotations, all it would do is create a Method C:

• Get original file. (DOCX)
• Create ebook. (EPUB)
• Edit/Proof book. (EPUB)
  
  • Author + Team = Multiple Rounds of proofing.

I don't see how it would help merge those author-comments + author-changes back into the finalized EPUB that much better over Method B.

I think you're simply accustomed to working with organizations that have professional people, and/or you've trained them. You've forgotten what it's like, in the wild.

- - -

Side Note: Of course, I welcome all Web Annotation tools/enhancements!

Like I wrote in that 2022 thread, the current landscape is a mess! We definitely need more interoperability between all Annotation tools!

- - -

Yes, that would be nice.

Hmmm, interesting.

So you're telling me a PDF Highlight + PDF Comment can be merged back into the text somehow?

Yes and has been that way for some years now.

(And... the stuff I explained would be a browser-based DOCX Highlight + DOCX Comment + you'd get Tracked Changes.)

Not sure to what it is you are referring.

Hmmm... We'll definitely have to chat about that some time.

Been doing it for 3 years now.

Heh, yeah, I forget... not everybody creates perfectly crisp HTML like me!

"Perfectly crisp" HTMl has sweet FA to do with it. What you are NOT thinking about is what the author does to the file, whilst they have it. It's all well and good if you have novels or simple non-fiction, but by the time you're working with sidebars, text-boxes, pull-quotes, charts, tables, figures, captions, topic-matter indices, lists of all sizes shapes and sorts, subheadings, run-in headings...it's not going to work. Trust me, it won't.

Conversion between formats and merging back changes becomes much harder+unstable once you start drifting away from that ideal.

Sure, and if we were, let's say, working for Random House and a series of 5 editors, and we knew what they'd give us, and we would give them back Word files and all that, it would likely work. In the course of a given week, we have 50 different customers, all using different word processors, with widely varied skill levels--again, 90%+ wouldn't know Styles or Headings if they slapped them in the fact--it's a whole different kettle of fish. I'm trying to make it SIMPLER for them and easier for us. Trying some method that won't work in our environment--well, it won't work.

I know this BECAUSE we use a DOCX (ish) to INDD, to print layout, to Word file BACK to the customer, get customer's edits, BACK to INDD methodology now. I stupidly thought that would be easier, but as described above, it's a constant hassle. For those customers with 200-2,000 revisions (which is not uncommon, mind you) yes, it typically saves us some time--but when they've changed margins, changed fonts, changed letter-spacing, changed line-heights and on and on and on...I really cannot explain it to you.

Side Note: And, as we discussed in those previous threads, every single input->output format/conversion brings its own unique challenges.


Not too sure what that means, but okay.

(dictating to Dragon Naturally Speaking, because my left shoulder's frozen shoulder is acting up. This is clearly my yar for crud and illnesses.

Hitch

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Hitch

We have one edit that we make daily, which is the ubiquitous "forward/foreward" (yes, really) to "foreword."

I knew a guy that made this mistake ALL the time… what an idiot!


I wonder if Page Edit might work… or be easily made to work? An executable that doesn’t need to be installed… perhaps pre-loaded with the customer’s ePub so there is no chance they get the wrong file. It could log any changes they made…


Edit:
Might even be able to encrypt the ePub to discourage customers from taking the product without paying.
And while I’m brainstorming… a drop-down selector on the preview to select the target device(s)…with all the appropriate notices saying ‘this is an approximation - not a guarantee that it will be displayed this way…’

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I knew a guy that made this mistake ALL the time… what an idiot!

God, if I only saw this one time per day, I might die happy. Seriously. We see "forward" constantly and I mean, constantly. I mean, author much? Sheesh.

I wonder if Page Edit might work… or be easily made to work? An executable that doesn’t need to be installed… perhaps pre-loaded with the customer’s ePub so there is no chance they get the wrong file. It could log any changes they made…

Oooh, i didn't think of that. I wonder if we could export the html files, from the ePUB...hmmm....I mean, say, one chapter at a time. Alternatively, we could merge them all, export that as an HTML file..hmmm...(thinking hard)

Edit:
Might even be able to encrypt the ePub to discourage customers from taking the product without paying.
And while I’m brainstorming… a drop-down selector on the preview to select the target device(s)…with all the appropriate notices saying ‘this is an approximation - not a guarantee that it will be displayed this way…’

Phllbbft, we make them pay upfront. I leant that lesson the hard way(s). We were ripped off $10K in 2010 and $12K in 2011. That was the end of "pay upon completion." Trust me, I would NEVER suggest to a new bookmaker to take pay upon completion. Never.

About being ripped off:

Spoiler:

People used to make the sign of the cross around me, b/c I'd been in Real Estate Development, with hotels, restaurants, tec. for 30 years and of course, they assumed that I've dealt with criminals, mafiosos, etc., right? Well, let me tell you--I've been ripped off to a far, far greater extent, by authors than anybody else--ever. Not "linen" guys, garbage guys, etc. Not compared to authors. Especially considered proportionately. Shocking stuff.

I'll look into this Page Edit idea, Red. That may just work. One never knows!

Hitch

[Quoth]

Well, Hitch, I'm glad I laughed at my son and said NO! when he suggested I do what you do.
You and your merry band are certainly earning every cent. Probably cheap.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Well, Hitch, I'm glad I laughed at my son and said NO! when he suggested I do what you do.
You and your merry band are certainly earning every cent. Probably cheap.

Seriously, I would retire if I could. I should have sold when Joshua Tallent did, but noooo, I was an idiot.

Hitch

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Red?

Whut? Firstly, this would cost our customers a small fortune, they'd have to learn to use it and they'd never make it work right. Not following?

(FYI, I use Dragon every week. I cannot see MY customers surviving it, TBH.)

Hitch

I was responding to the last line of the prior post

Not too sure what that… Dictated to DNS, but not read.… means, but okay.

BR

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

I was responding to the last line of the prior post



BR

Yes, I knew that. Now I'm really confused.

1. Dictated to DNS meant, "dictated to Dragon naturally Speaking" and the rest meant, basically "dictated but not read/proofed." That's what that meant.
2. OH, I get it, you were replying to Tex. DUH, got it, thanks.

Hitch