Hey, Workshop--ISO a browser-based eReader with USABLE annotation tools.

[Hitch]

Hey, guys:

I recently had an upgrade to my PM system, (Project Management) which allows me to put PDFs into a browser and allow the users to make annotations, for edits, comments and the like. As you all remember (sure, you do!), we have very non-tecchie customers and they struggle horribly with even relatively simple stuff, like putting comments into a PDF using Adobe Reader. I've had many customers that could never figure out how to even download Adobe Reader, so...well.

What I would dearly love would be an ePUB-equivalent functionality. I'd LOVe to be able to put an ePUB into our "proofing section," which would also open in a browser (no software installation by the customer required, woo woo...) and allow them to make annotations, and comments that the bookmaker could then see, use, make changes, etc.

Now, I've looked around. Calibre has an annotation capability, but when you export it, you're stuck using Calibre's reader AND the annotations to find where they are. Others, like Books Reader (Mac and iOS) allows notes, of course, but bupkus for a usable export; ADE has nada, and on and on and on.

I know that apparently, BOOKARI has something that may work, but the licensing terms for that are pretty rough. Plus it's licensed per user, which means I would spend my days adding new licenses, closing them and so on. Or the alternative, go broke NOT removing licenses, lol.

Does ANYBODY HERE know of a usable, viable ePUB, browser-based eReader that has viable annotation capabilities that could be easily exported into a usable form? Something that an eBookmaker could and would actually use? If you try to export Calibre's annotations, to markdown or anything else, you'll see what I mean when I say it's not really viable (for the bookmaker to use).

I looked at Thorium, but can't tell if it has any annotation abilities; their focus seems to be all accessibility, all the time, rather than annotation. Readium, we all know, has gone or is going the way of the Dodo; Azardi doesn't have them, (at least, I don't believe so). Edge lost its ePUB reader (from MSFT) and so on and so forth. (sigh). Most of the others I've seen and tried are too primitive.

It really needs to be browser-based, so that I could integrate it with our Proofing system in the PM environment, but at this point, I might be happy just getting something that works (that they would, sob, have to install). Even that would be better than what I deal with now. Those of you in the biz, YOU know what it's like.

Ideas? I'm asking you guys because my brain has given up on this topic. It just flat out refuses to address this any further; it's gone on strike. Thoughts, anybody? This isn't a biggie for those customers that are doing both print and eBooks with us--but we still have a sizable customer base that only does ePUBs with us and it's for these customers that I could use this.

???

Hitch

[Quoth]

Include the cost of a Kobo in the initial fee. Any current Kobo + Kobo Utilities on Calibre works better for proofing and annotation and export than anything else. It can even natively export via book menu if you add the option to the conf file. I've tried nearly everything.

In theory a browser plug-in is possible. But not everyone can figure how to install the browser that needs it and I'd not want to proof an entire book in a browser.

I understand what you want to do. Good luck!

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Include the cost of a Kobo in the initial fee. Any current Kobo + Kobo Utilities on Calibre works better for proofing and annotation and export than anything else. It can even natively export via book menu if you add the option to the conf file. I've tried nearly everything.

In theory a browser plug-in is possible. But not everyone can figure how to install the browser that needs it and I'd not want to proof an entire book in a browser.

I understand what you want to do. Good luck!

Yabbut, I have this horrible vision of me trying to ship Kobos 'round the world. Sheesh. (Serious bidness, I had this problem with a huge customer, a $30K job, for Nooks, back in 2012, a customer in....Oz! What a nightmare.)

BUT, I will absolutely take it under advisement. I am SO SICK of dealing with "but but but, I can't install..."

SICK!

Thanks, Quoth.

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Hmmm, all I know of Web Annotation off the top of my head is:

• Hypothes.is

I last wrote about them in:

• 2022: "Standardizing ePub annotations"

I have no idea what they've been doing recently though or how well their current tech works.

From a quick skimming of their website, it looks like annotating PDFs are handled.

(They were the ones way back in 2014–2017ish pushing EPUB in the browser, and last I heard they had HTML annotations working too. Also, they were one of the big pushes behind the W3C Web Annotation standards.)

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yabbut, I have this horrible vision of me trying to ship Kobos 'round the world. Sheesh. (Serious bidness, I had this problem with a huge customer, a $30K job, for Nooks, back in 2012, a customer in....Oz! What a nightmare.

Yes, no fun. I got fed up with it (selling on ebay or doing repairs). The packing, cost, getting broken in transit...
"It's smashed!"
-- "Couldn't be."
"Oh, your double packed box was fantastic, but the guy threw it off the back of the truck. I'm suing them!"

The customer/client would have to buy the Kobo direct. Or Kobo ship direct. Anything else can be a nightmare.

Baffles me actually people wanting to publish ebooks and only relying on a desktop viewer (and having it full screen instead of an ebook sized window). I think the minimum is one Kobo, one real Kindle (not a Fire or App) and an Android phone with as small a screen as possible, with 3rd party epub app, Kindle app, Kobo App and Google Playbooks app as minimum. Add iPhone, tablets (android & iPad) and other ereaders as desired or budget / sales allow.
Still a lot of new laptops or desktop monitors that are about 1366 x 768 and thus rubbish to preview PDFs for POD.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Hmmm, all I know of Web Annotation off the top of my head is:

• Hypothes.is

I last wrote about them in:

• 2022: "Standardizing ePub annotations"

I have no idea what they've been doing recently though or how well their current tech works.

From a quick skimming of their website, it looks like annotating PDFs are handled.

(They were the ones way back in 2014–2017ish pushing EPUB in the browser, and last I heard they had HTML annotations working too. Also, they were one of the big pushes behind the W3C Web Annotation standards.)

Yes, I do remember their push for the Web annotation, etc. I'd forgotten about them--I'll dig into it. I need something that I can convince Teamwork to integrate into the web system for the PM environment. Sigh.

Thanks, Tex!

Originally Posted by Quoth

Yes, no fun. I got fed up with it (selling on ebay or doing repairs). The packing, cost, getting broken in transit...
"It's smashed!"
-- "Couldn't be."
"Oh, your double packed box was fantastic, but the guy threw it off the back of the truck. I'm suing them!"

The customer/client would have to buy the Kobo direct. Or Kobo ship direct. Anything else can be a nightmare.

Baffles me actually people wanting to publish ebooks and only relying on a desktop viewer (and having it full screen instead of an ebook sized window). I think the minimum is one Kobo, one real Kindle (not a Fire or App) and an Android phone with as small a screen as possible, with 3rd party epub app, Kindle app, Kobo App and Google Playbooks app as minimum. Add iPhone, tablets (android & iPad) and other ereaders as desired or budget / sales allow.
Still a lot of new laptops or desktop monitors that are about 1366 x 768 and thus rubbish to preview PDFs for POD.

I would say that the vast majority of my customers either a) don't have devices or b) don't sideload our files onto those devices. Don't know how. they use KP3 and they're pretty happy with that, or some combo of KP3, along with ADE or Books Reader for Mac/iPad or the like.

You gotta remember, if you've forgotten, oh-out-of-the-direct-to-author-business-One, that most self-published authors do not think of themselves as PUBLISHERS. And don't see the need to behave as a publisher would. You and I think about these things differently than do they.

Hitch

[RbnJrg]

Hi Hitch; I don't know if it would be what you need but Foliate (for Linux) is an excelent epub reader and it can export notes in 4 files format: .json, .txt, .html and markdown. Notes are exported together with the associated text of the respective epub.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Thanks, Tex!

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'd LOVe to be able to put an ePUB into our "proofing section," which would also open in a browser (no software installation by the customer required, woo woo...) and allow them to make annotations, and comments that the bookmaker could then see, use, make changes, etc.

Hmmm, and any reason why EPUB only?

Why not browser-based DOCX/ODT? That would probably be the most stable/portable as of today.

You could then use an online browser-based word processors for your comments, like:

• Collabora
• Google Docs

All they'd need is a working browser, and it would allow you to:

• Share the document URL.
• Have them open/comment/change.
• Export back to DOCX (or ODT/other formats) if needed.
  
  • This would keep comments baked in, if needed!

You can also:

• Keep everyone in sync with the latest versions.
• Lock permissions so they don't edit/botch the document.
• Get all the granular "Tracked Changes" powers too, so you can Accept/Deny changes individually.

And to import to those tools, you could also do an:

• EPUB->DOCX conversion

to get your DOCXs into "roughly equivalent to ebook" shape. (Although you'd have to convince them the final product/ebook WILL NOT look like this!)

- - -

Side Note: But even that browser-based method creates different headaches...

Lots of authors on mobile devices, don't know how to see/add comments, unfamiliar UI, footnotes / negative indents not transferring properly, etc.

(I had trouble a while back, because I was explaining Google Docs desktop instructions, when they were using the browser (or app) version. Took quite a few rounds of convincing/handholding, but by the 3rd proofing round we got most kinks ironed out!)

- - -

Side Note #2: Of course, Google Docs will completely mangle your Styles... but other tools may not treat your documents with such disrespect!

Depending on where this fits in your workflow too... you might run across the great "Bifurcation".

But you're already well aware of that.

[Quoth]

Google Docs seriously messes formatting. It's good for collaborative editing in real time, but I've never tried annotation. If you don't need real time or do need privacy it's pointless.

I know nothing about Collabora, but having had to use Google docs in a team I can't see it doing what Hitch wants. It was also a pain in performance on a 8Mbps down / 1Mbps up broadband connection. So glad I don't have to use it now.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I would say that the vast majority of my customers either a) don't have devices or b) don't sideload our files onto those devices. Don't know how.

Sadly true.
I worked for a few years giving IT courses and many don't want to know how. Oddly in the Business College Secretary class the girls with no prior computer experience learned more. In the Businessman / Executive "secret" one-to-one classes they either quickly gave up or employed me (or someone else) to create the spreadsheet, database or program realising that actually learning how to create these things was orders of magnitude harder than using one customised for their task (perhaps tracking Christmas toy orders made in the Spring).

Originally Posted by Hitch

they use KP3 and they're pretty happy with that, or some combo of KP3, along with ADE or Books Reader for Mac/iPad or the like.

You gotta remember, if you've forgotten, oh-out-of-the-direct-to-author-business-One, that most self-published authors do not think of themselves as PUBLISHERS. And don't see the need to behave as a publisher would. You and I think about these things differently than do they.

Yes, I know.

And most won't use styles, instead using Word as a kind of glass typewriter, though that's better than "ed".

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Sadly true.
I worked for a few years giving IT courses and many don't want to know how. Oddly in the Business College Secretary class the girls with no prior computer experience learned more. In the Businessman / Executive "secret" one-to-one classes they either quickly gave up or employed me (or someone else) to create the spreadsheet, database or program realising that actually learning how to create these things was orders of magnitude harder than using one customised for their task (perhaps tracking Christmas toy orders made in the Spring).

Er, "girls"? LOLOL.

A long-ish time ago, now...let's see the early 90's to mid, maybe--I worked with this schmuck who was a total a**h*le. He would tell me that he didn't "do" spreadsheets or computers, because that was typing, which is "clerical work" for women. (Surprise, jackass! Guess who survived in business and who didn't? HA!)

Yes, I know.

Oh, I know you do!

And most won't use styles, instead using Word as a kind of glass typewriter, though that's better than "ed".

Don't get me started. I must say something along those lines at least once a day on the KDP forums, etc. FRUSTRATING AS HELL. I mean, somebody gives you the keys ot the Word kingdom and you just blow 'em off? (Not "you," I mean, some hypothetical bozo I'm talking to on their forums.)

Hith

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Er, "girls"? LOLOL.

I suppose in some countries called young women. Age 16 to 19 probably. It was maybe 1992 or 1993 and most had left school at the previous June after the Leaving Cert. Some were older due having tried something else first, either a job or dropped out of a College or University.

No boys in the class.

Grannies might be called girls here. Calling someone a young woman might be thought condescending and calling someone an old woman is an insult (not sure if more or less insulting here if the target is a man).

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I suppose in some countries called young women. Age 16 to 19 probably. It was maybe 1992 or 1993 and most had left school at the previous June after the Leaving Cert. Some were older due having tried something else first, either a job or dropped out of a College or University.

No boys in the class.

Grannies might be called girls here. Calling someone a young woman might be thought condescending and calling someone an old woman is an insult (not sure if more or less insulting here if the target is a man).

I know, dear. I was just giving you crap. In today's world, Gods forfend that those of us raised some 50-60+ years ago actually just speak. It's the equivalent of taking your life into your own hands.

H

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Google Docs seriously messes formatting.

Yep, Google Docs completely mangles the Styles in your document, and reexporting out of it creates a gobbledygook mess of code which doesn't represent the original at all.

Originally Posted by Quoth

[...] but having had to use Google docs in a team I can't see it doing what Hitch wants.

I don't see why not. I've used it in proofing stages, where I've:

• Completed initial ebook/EPUB.
• Convert EPUB->DOCX.
  
  • Calibre or other tools.
• Upload DOCX to online word processor.
• Give author link.
• They proof/do whatever.
  
  • Make minor adjustments to text, add a Foreword, leave comments.
    
  • Answered/Solved comments auto-email everyone who needs to be notified.
    

Then when we iron out all the final pieces...

• I export + do my usual cleanup

treating it just as if it was "a fresh book" file, except 90%+ of the groundwork was already done.

If not much changed:

• The code difference merging is very simple.

If a lot has changed:

• I treat it like a fresh file.
  
  • (It would still be MILES ahead of the low-quality mess originally submitted from authors.)
    

But I mostly do EPUB-First/HTML-First workflows...

If you had DOCX-First workflows, you'd do all your cleanup at that stage, then you'd treat that online version—or a DOCX close to it—as the ultimate "source file".

- - -

From my initial reading, it seemed like Hitch wanted this for a PROOFING stage, and I assume it was to:

• Show author "final" copy.
• Have them comment/proof on it.
• Keep the conversion team+author in sync.

The EPUB annotation/commenting tools aren't there yet, but the DOCX/ODT/PDF ones are much more mature.

- - -

Originally Posted by Quoth

I know nothing about Collabora, [...]

Collabora Office is the LibreOffice-based equivalent. It runs on Online/Mobile too.

Good thing is, it treats your files just as LibreOffice would:

• No mangling of Styles
• No destruction of the underlying document.

You also get:

• Full privacy
  
  • Keeping your documents out of Google's grubby little hands.
    
  • (Can even self-host your own server if you wanted.)
    

And, as power users, you still get full access to the full power of the entire office suite. Not some dumbed-down version that's missing a ton of features.

- - -

Side Note: If you want some more info, see their recent talk given at:

• LibreOffice Conference 2022: "Collabora & LibreOffice: Working together to make Open Source rock"

- - -

Originally Posted by Hitch

He would tell me that he didn't "do" spreadsheets or computers, because that was typing, which is "clerical work" for women. (Surprise, jackass! Guess who survived in business and who didn't? HA!)

Pfffff. Women!!! Who needs ’em?

[BetterRed]

Reading this thread reminded me of something I used the '90s, as a result I ended up here ==>> Lotus Notes refuses to die, again…

The comments are interesting; contrary to what one might expect, many (most perhaps) are complimentary.

BR