Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > Reading Recommendations > Book Clubs

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-22-2018, 12:25 PM   #61
Catlady
Grand Sorcerer
Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Catlady's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,938
Karma: 27497393
Join Date: Oct 2010
Device: Kindle Fire, AGPTek Bluetooth Clip, jetBook Lite
Dick's violent attack and near-strangulation of Vita seem a whole lot worse than a bit of deception at the airport; since Vita forgave the former, I can easily see her forgiving the latter.

She might be happy enough with a paralyzed husband who can't stop her from doing whatever she wants to do.
Catlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 12:35 PM   #62
issybird
o saeclum infacetum
issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
issybird's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,971
Karma: 121678327
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, GloHD, Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
Dick's violent attack and near-strangulation of Vita seem a whole lot worse than a bit of deception at the airport; since Vita forgave the former, I can easily see her forgiving the latter.
I dunno; I could argue the opposite. The near-strangulation was unconscious, but the deception at the airport was deliberate betrayal, and when he was already on probation in effect.

Quote:
She might be happy enough with a paralyzed husband who can't stop her from doing whatever she wants to do.
If that's the line to be taken, she would probably be happier still with a dead husband whose showplace in Cornwall could be sold. Much depends on whether or how much she had loved him. And to what extent would she prefer to be in America? I get the impression she's ready to go home, and the boys, too.
issybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 10-22-2018, 01:05 PM   #63
Catlady
Grand Sorcerer
Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Catlady's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,938
Karma: 27497393
Join Date: Oct 2010
Device: Kindle Fire, AGPTek Bluetooth Clip, jetBook Lite
Quote:
Originally Posted by issybird View Post
I dunno; I could argue the opposite. The near-strangulation was unconscious, but the deception at the airport was deliberate betrayal, and when he was already on probation in effect.
Yes, but she'll also learn of his paralysis, and that will help put the betrayal in context as a result of the addictive drug, just as the strangulation was.


Quote:
If that's the line to be taken, she would probably be happier still with a dead husband whose showplace in Cornwall could be sold. Much depends on whether or how much she had loved him. And to what extent would she prefer to be in America? I get the impression she's ready to go home, and the boys, too.
I'm not convinced that Dick won't die from the drug, or turn into a vegetable, or become insane. I think Vita loves him and will stay married to him, but she's practical. She's not going to pine away and weep at his bedside. She'll do what she wants and what's best for her and her sons.
Catlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 07:19 PM   #64
Bookpossum
Snoozing in the sun
Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Bookpossum's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,507
Karma: 96177989
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
For me, the ending implies paralysis. Dr Powell said the final report was
Quote:
... the drug contains a substance of some toxicity that could seriously affect the central nervous system, possibly leading to paralysis.
I agree that Dick’s conscious decision to miss the plane and take his last trip would be harder to forgive than the unconscious attack. It would be hard to trust him again after that, as it must be for anyone dealing with an addicted person, whether it’s drugs or alcohol or gambling or whatever.
Bookpossum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 11:23 AM   #65
issybird
o saeclum infacetum
issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
issybird's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,971
Karma: 121678327
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, GloHD, Aura One
One thing I wondered about when I was reading is that something of a point is made of Dick's religion; he's a lapsed Catholic. It's possible this is just a setup so he would have a ready excuse not to go to church with Vita and the boys, but I can't help thinking there should be more to it. Does it speak to some atavistic affinity he had with the people of the 14th century, still what would be considered Catholic before the Reformation? Or was it raise the issue of mortal sin, as invoked by Roger as he lay dying? Who, if he died unshriven would be condemned to eternal damnation? Are there implications for Dick if he's suddenly cut off from life?

This somewhat ties in for me with the jump ahead in time, but I'm not quite sure how. The change from the vibrant, seemingly romantic past to one of desolation and destruction.
issybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 10-23-2018, 01:27 PM   #66
Catlady
Grand Sorcerer
Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Catlady's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,938
Karma: 27497393
Join Date: Oct 2010
Device: Kindle Fire, AGPTek Bluetooth Clip, jetBook Lite
Quote:
Originally Posted by issybird View Post
One thing I wondered about when I was reading is that something of a point is made of Dick's religion; he's a lapsed Catholic. It's possible this is just a setup so he would have a ready excuse not to go to church with Vita and the boys, but I can't help thinking there should be more to it. Does it speak to some atavistic affinity he had with the people of the 14th century, still what would be considered Catholic before the Reformation? Or was it raise the issue of mortal sin, as invoked by Roger as he lay dying? Who, if he died unshriven would be condemned to eternal damnation? Are there implications for Dick if he's suddenly cut off from life?

This somewhat ties in for me with the jump ahead in time, but I'm not quite sure how. The change from the vibrant, seemingly romantic past to one of desolation and destruction.
Perhaps being Catholic was something that made him feel more of an outsider in his own time if everyone around him is non-Catholic. But I can't say I thought much about his religion.
Catlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 07:13 PM   #67
issybird
o saeclum infacetum
issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
issybird's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,971
Karma: 121678327
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, GloHD, Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
Perhaps being Catholic was something that made him feel more of an outsider in his own time if everyone around him is non-Catholic.
It's another of those instances where I felt du Maurier played a switch. Just as Dick was a more likely name for an American and Vita for an Englishwoman, an American Catholic from New York would have been far more typical than an English one. But Vita was apparently Anglican.

But I have to file this under peculiar; I don't see how it signified.
issybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 07:52 PM   #68
Bookpossum
Snoozing in the sun
Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Bookpossum's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,507
Karma: 96177989
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
Perhaps it was so that he could somehow be there to absolve Roger. I found the passage where he said the prayer for Roger very moving. When Roger died and Dick returned to the present
Quote:
There was no nausea, no vertigo, no singing in my ears. Only a great silence, and a sense of peace.
Bookpossum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 08:01 PM   #69
issybird
o saeclum infacetum
issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
issybird's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,971
Karma: 121678327
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, GloHD, Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookpossum View Post
Perhaps it was so that he could somehow be there to absolve Roger. I found the passage where he said the prayer for Roger very moving. When Roger died and Dick returned to the present
Quote:
There was no nausea, no vertigo, no singing in my ears. Only a great silence, and a sense of peace.
Oh, thank you for recalling that to me! Perhaps, if we take a deterministic view of everything that happened, that was the point of all the trips and Roger as guide? Roger was seeking his absolution?

That makes Dick and Magnus much less agent and much more tool of the universe, shall we call it? Which would also absolve both of them. If we're not willing to go quite that far, it could merely mean that was the cause of the uproar in the ether that drew Dick and Magnus to that time.

I can't help feeling that Dick's being Catholic meant more than just a "Get Out of Church Free" card.
issybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 09:04 PM   #70
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,899
Karma: 88988769
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
I was inclined to think that Dick's lapsed Catholic status was mostly about providing an excuse for him to have at least some familiarity with what he was seeing in the past (a first person narrator needs enough knowledge to explain to the reader where necessary); and yes, to allow for his final prayer for Roger, to have even considered that absolution was required.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 10:18 PM   #71
Bookpossum
Snoozing in the sun
Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Bookpossum's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,507
Karma: 96177989
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
Early on (Chapter 4) in a conversation with Magnus about his second trip, Dick says he thinks they each saw what they deserved:

Quote:
I got His Grace the Bishop and the County, awaking in me all the forgotten snob appeal of Stonyhurst, and you got the sexy deviations you have denied yourself for thirty years.
(Stonyhurst is a school in Lancashire, run by the Jesuits.) I agree with you, gmw that Dick's Catholic upbringing means he understands and therefore interprets for us what is going on in religious terms.

A bit earlier in the book, in recalling his visits to Kilmarth as Magnus's friend back in their undergraduate days at Cambridge, Dick remembers that he asked Mrs Lane if the house was haunted. So the implication is perhaps that Roger's spirit was still there in need of the absolution that only a Catholic, albeit a lapsed one, could give.
Bookpossum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2018, 11:14 AM   #72
issybird
o saeclum infacetum
issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
issybird's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,971
Karma: 121678327
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, GloHD, Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookpossum View Post
So the implication is perhaps that Roger's spirit was still there in need of the absolution that only a Catholic, albeit a lapsed one, could give.
I think du Maurier's playing fast and loose with dogma there, but it's plausible. What didn't work for me was the invocation of "mortal sin" at such a late point in the book/journey. A whole lot of that going on; was Roger more scrupulous in his conscience than the others, given all the instances of murder and infidelity that we saw?

The more usual trope would be that Roger earned his salvation by some positive outcome that came from his acting as guide to Magnus and Dick, but the reverse is true, with Magnus dead and Dick presumably paralyzed and their having had no possibility of affecting events in the past.
issybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2018, 12:21 AM   #73
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,899
Karma: 88988769
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Yes, I think it's plausible. People can be very selective about what they feel guilty about, and what Roger's feeling guilty about is helping Isolda on her way; he doesn't appear to be that concerned about anything else, and there was obviously plenty to be concerned about. This fits, it seems to me. Certainly Dick finds it easy enough to relate to, as might be expected.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2018, 12:34 AM   #74
Bookpossum
Snoozing in the sun
Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bookpossum ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Bookpossum's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,507
Karma: 96177989
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: iPad Mini, Kobo Touch
Well yes - I don’t expect it would fit with the dogma, but it fits with our idea of an unquiet spirit that needed forgiveness to become free. It seems to be an idea to which people return in folk tales, poetry and so on.

To our modern minds, what Roger did was an act of love, not of murder, though many countries’ laws are still working towards that distinction, including my own. Perhaps he felt the guilt all the more because he loved Isolda.

I suppose whether people agree with this will depend on their religious beliefs, or their moral code or whatever.

ETA. Oops - I crossed in the ether with you this time, gmw. However, we are in agreement.

Last edited by Bookpossum; 10-25-2018 at 12:36 AM.
Bookpossum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2018, 08:14 AM   #75
issybird
o saeclum infacetum
issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.issybird ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
issybird's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,971
Karma: 121678327
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Device: H2O, GloHD, Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookpossum View Post
Well yes - I don’t expect it would fit with the dogma, but it fits with our idea of an unquiet spirit that needed forgiveness to become free. It seems to be an idea to which people return in folk tales, poetry and so on.
Dick didn't have to be Catholic to invoke this. I suspect it's like the unnecessary DNA reference, just authorial overkill.
issybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Leaf September 2018 Discussion • Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro issybird Book Clubs 163 10-18-2018 04:26 PM
New Leaf May 2018 Discussion • The Radium Girls by Kate Moore issybird Book Clubs 138 08-14-2018 01:56 PM
MobileRead October 2015 Discussion: Kidnapped (spoilers) WT Sharpe Book Clubs 21 10-25-2015 06:25 PM
MobileRead October 2014 Discussion: The Man Who Would Be King (spoilers) WT Sharpe Book Clubs 7 11-01-2014 01:04 PM
Daphne du Maurier: which one should I start with? Loosheesh Reading Recommendations 16 10-14-2014 02:09 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:39 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.