Kindle Touch & KF8 eek! (maybe)

[JSWolf]

Over in the Calibre forum is a thread about KF8 output from Calibre. Someone converted the ePub version of Kim (available at MR for free) and after the first page or so, all the other pages show black. Kovid converted the ePub using Kindlegen and got the same result.

Since KF8 on the Touch (with firmware 5.1) might have a possible problem displaying KF8 (this is from an ePub conversion, not an actual KF8 downloaded from Amazon), is it possible to download Mobi eBooks from Amazon instead of KF8 using the Touch in case something does crop up?

Has anyone else come up against any bugs in 5.1 that are preventing you from reading eBook(s) from Amazon?

[OddCosine]

I'm reading Three Men in a Boat that I converted to KF8 with KindleGen from the excellent epub available here on MobileRead, and it looks fine. A quick glance through the The Adventures of Tom Sawyer KF8 I generated from the MR epub looks good. I've read the KF8 version of one of the Harry Potter books downloaded from Amazon, and it was fine too.

Guess I'll start worrying about 5.1 when I see a need to.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Since KF8 on the Touch (with firmware 5.1) is buggy in a big way, is it possible to download Mobi eBooks from Amazon instead of KF8 using the Touch? Are users of the Touch (with 5.1) going to be playing a guessing game and hoping that what they are downloading will work not knowing if it's KF8 or Mobi they'll be using?

Have you heard of a single problem with a KF8 book that's been downloaded by a Touch user from Amazon? Seems to me you're looking for a problem that so far hasn't shown itself. Yes there appear to be a few problems with some KF8 stuff output by Calibre, but Calibre's support for the format is very young and still being developed is it not?

EDIT: I see from another thread you're talking about 'Kim' conversions that aren't working. It does indeed seem that the Touch isn't reading that correctly from either Calibre or KindleGen.

The old saying "garbage in, garbage out" comes to mind. Getting the KF8 formatting correct is a daunting task for many, if not most. Amazon is not as forgiving with KF8 as others are with the ePub format. If HTML5 and CSS3 broke every time a web page had a syntax error or some other minor booboo then the internet would look horrible. But web browsers are very forgiving and render our booboos into something pleasing. Amazon chooses to force more perfect formatting though.

My suggestion is to bury your penguin beak/nose in the KF8 documentation until you can create good KF8. Don't use crap like calibre to create a KF8. Don't simply try to convert someone else's garbage. Don't use Sigil to create an ePub then try to convert it. LEARN to do it RIGHT and from scratch.

If it still looks like garbage then you might have a legitimate complaint.

A bit of clarification about using Sigil to create KF8:

I suggest you NOT use Sigil to create an ePub then use Kindle Previewer to convert the ePub to a KF8 book. Reason: Amazon does not support as much CSS3 as ePub and the content.opf and toc.ncx files will most likely not match Amazon's requirements. Plus sigil will muck up @media queries like @media amzn-kf8 and @media amzn-mobi. Without proper @media queries you want have a dual KF8/mobi7 book.

Sigil is an excellent program for creating ePubs from HTML files. However, the content.opf and toc.ncx files will probably not be exactly what Amazon wants. Plus Sigil will wrap your HTML5 files in XML.

Here is my suggested workflow:

1. Create the HTML5 and CSS3 files.
2. Copy the HTML5 and CSS3 files.
3. Use Sigil to create an ePub using the copied files.
4. Create a folder containing your original files.
5. Copy the content.opf and toc.ncx files from the Sigil ePub into the folder containing the KF8 build files.
6. Modify the content.opf and toc.ncx files to meet Amazon's requirements. This has to be perfect. The changes will probably be minor, but they better be precise.
7. Start Kindle Previewer and open the content.opf file in the folder containing the KF8 build files.
8. Build the KF8 book.
9. If no errors then you are done. Otherwise correct the errors and rebuild.

RECAP:

Basically you just Sigil to help organize your HTML5 and CSS3 files into book form and to thus create the content.opf and toc.ncx files. That is all. I personally wouldn't use Sigil to create the HTML5 nor to edit it. Instead use an editor that doesn't muck up the HTML5.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Over in the Calibre forum is a thread about KF8 output from Calibre. Someone converted the ePub version of Kim (available at MR for free) and after the first page or so, all the other pages show black. Kovid converted the ePub using Kindlegen and got the same result.

Since KF8 on the Touch (with firmware 5.1) is buggy in a big way, is it possible to download Mobi eBooks from Amazon instead of KF8 using the Touch? Are users of the Touch (with 5.1) going to be playing a guessing game and hoping that what they are downloading will work not knowing if it's KF8 or Mobi they'll be using?

Has anyone else come up against any bugs in 5.1 that are preventing you from reading eBook(s) from Amazon?

So, Jon. Have you tested these failures on your Kindle Touch? Oh, wait. You hate Amazon, Kindles and MOBI format so really this just another attempt to prove to yourself and the world that anybody who owns a Kindle is a fool.

You really need to get over it. Those of us who own Kindles are perfectly happy and really don't all want to switch to a *nicer* reader.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jswinden

The old saying "garbage in, garbage out" comes to mind. Getting the KF8 formatting correct is a daunting task for many, if not most. Amazon is not as forgiving with KF8 as others are with the ePub format. If HTML5 and CSS3 broke every time a web page had a syntax error or some other minor booboo then the internet would look horrible. But web browsers are very forgiving and render our booboos into something pleasing. Amazon chooses to force more perfect formatting though.

My suggestion is to bury your penguin beak/nose in the KF8 documentation until you can create good KF8. Don't use crap like calibre to create a KF8. Don't simply try to convert someone else's garbage. Don't use Sigil to create an ePub then try to convert it. LEARN to do it RIGHT and from scratch.

If it still looks like garbage then you might have a legitimate complaint.

The ePub is not garbage. It's well made. It has no structural errors. When converted to KF8, it works fine on a Kindle Fire and in Kindle 1.9.2 for Windows. It's only with a Kindle Touch firmware 5.1 that it doesn't work. So how is this garbage in, garbage out as it's not garbage. Even Kindlegen's output has the same results. So why would you use Kindlegen if it is so broken? Amazon has been accepting ePub for conversion for some time. Are you saying that Amazon cannot create proper software to convert a format they allow to be used as the source?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by OddCosine

I'm reading Three Men in a Boat that I converted to KF8 with KindleGen from the excellent epub available here on MobileRead, and it looks fine. A quick glance through the The Adventures of Tom Sawyer KF8 I generated from the MR epub looks good. I've read the KF8 version of one of the Harry Potter books downloaded from Amazon, and it was fine too.

Guess I'll start worrying about 5.1 when I see a need to.

I'm not saying every KF8 is going to be an issue. But because the illustrated version of Kim in the MR library did not work after being converted with both Calibre and Kindlegen, I'm just posting a small warning.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Please tell me, why are you so hostile?

Please tell us why someone who doesn't own a Kindle and makes numerous complaints about Amazon and the mobi format, and then shows up on Kindle forums to complain loudly about *possible* kindle bugs should not ignored or treated hostile.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The ePub is not garbage. It's well made. It has no structural errors. When converted to KF8, it works fine on a Kindle Fire and in Kindle 1.9.2 for Windows. It's only with a Kindle Touch firmware 5.1 that it doesn't work. So how is this garbage in, garbage out as it's not garbage. Even Kindlegen's output has the same results. So why would you use Kindlegen if it is so broken? Amazon has been accepting ePub for conversion for some time. Are you saying that Amazon cannot create proper software to convert a format they allow to be used as the source?

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Amazon will also let you convert from other sources too, but that doesn't mean you will get quality KF8. Quality ePub does not mean quality KF8. There are differences between the two and if you don't fully understand those differences then you will get garbage out. Kindle Previewer isn't broke, it just requires good coding. Take the time to fully learn KF8 formatting rather trying to take shortcuts!

[OddCosine]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm not saying every KF8 is going to be an issue. But because the illustrated version of Kim in the MR library did not work after being converted with both Calibre and Kindlegen, I'm just posting a small warning.

Hey, my insignificant sample size was three times bigger than yours. You seem to be inferring from one issue that:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Since KF8 on the Touch (with firmware 5.1) is buggy in a big way ...

You make it sound like downloading KF8 files from Amazon is fraught with peril. Have there been any reports of problems with Amazon supplied files? I can't help but thinking you have an agenda here. Do you even own a KT? (we all know what that stands for)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by OddCosine

Hey, my insignificant sample size was three times bigger than yours. You seem to be inferring from one issue that:



You make it sound like downloading KF8 files from Amazon is fraught with peril. Have there been any reports of problems with Amazon supplied files? I can't help but thinking you have an agenda here. Do you even own a KT? (we all know what that stands for)

That was the wrong way to phrase things. I do apologize for making it seem like more of an issue then it probably is. Thank you for catching that and pointing it out.

[BarryTX]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Please tell us why someone who doesn't own a Kindle and makes numerous complaints about Amazon and the mobi format, and then shows up on Kindle forums to complain loudly about *possible* kindle bugs should not ignored or treated hostile.

I've gotta say - I don't find anything in JSWolf's posting above that should create hostility. I understand where you are coming from, in that he apparently is not a Kindle owner and obviously isn't a Kindle fan. But he might actually have something worthwhile to contribute once in awhile so until then, why not ignore rather than flame.

It's what we Kindle owners do - make the world a better place!

Barry
owner of a K2 and KF

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by BarryTX

I've gotta say - I don't find anything in JSWolf's posting above that should create hostility. I understand where you are coming from, in that he apparently is not a Kindle owner and obviously isn't a Kindle fan. But he might actually have something worthwhile to contribute once in awhile so until then, why not ignore rather than flame.

It's what we Kindle owners do - make the world a better place!

I think its a combination of things from over the years, not specifically this post that got such a reaction.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by BarryTX

I've gotta say - I don't find anything in JSWolf's posting above that should create hostility. I understand where you are coming from, in that he apparently is not a Kindle owner and obviously isn't a Kindle fan. But he might actually have something worthwhile to contribute once in awhile so until then, why not ignore rather than flame.

Mostly I do ignore Jon. He's managed to make me ignore complete sub-forums. The problem is that Jon does not own Kindles, doesn't like Kindles and goes out of his way to complain about Kindles at every opportunity. If you didn't know better you'd think that he actually knows what he's talking about. In this case he's probably way off base. I don't know what the problem is with the Kim ebook that does seem to be causing problems, but it's plainly obvious from this thread that other folks with KTs are having *no* problems with either KF8 books created with tools or from KF8 books downloaded from Amazon. Complaining about bugs in the KT with a single book as proof needs to be refuted and the agenda of the complainer needs to be highlighted.