Unchangeable font

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I created a test EPUB with an embedded font used for h1 elements. No font was specified for the body or regular paragraphs.

Master MOBI (MOBI+KF8) and AZK were created using Kindle Previewer 2.94. KFX was created using Kindle Previewer 3.15 and the KFX Output calibre plugin.

The results were as follows:

MOBI (Kindle Previewer 3.15 - Tablet device, Kindle for PC 1.20.1, Kindle for Android 7.18.0.1), AZK (Kindle for iOS 5.15.2), KFX (Kindle Previewer 3.15, Paperwhite II 5.8.11): Main body text shows whatever font the user selects and headings always show the embedded font.

MOBI (Kindle Previewer 2.94 - Voyage device, Paperwhite II 5.8.11): Main body text and headings show whatever font the user selects. Headings show the embedded font only when "Publisher font" is selected.

Hi:

Which would be what I expect. BUT, did you test the book on a real PPW, Voyage, or Kindle, as Jon did? What worries me is, in the past, I've found the PPW/Voyage/Oasis family to be largely correctly emulated by Previewer 2.xx. I haven't had a chance to tear Jon's file apart, and then test it on the Voyage and PPW that we have here, but...I have bad tummy about this. I really hope I'm worrying about nothing.

Hitch

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Hitch

BUT, did you test the book on a real PPW, Voyage, or Kindle, as Jon did?

Yes. For the entries labelled "Paperwhite II 5.8.11" I was using a real Paperwhite running that firmware. Likewise with the Kindle apps on various platforms.

In this case the real PaperWhite and the old Previewer behave the same. Everything else I tried works differently from those two.


Added: I pulled out my old Kindle Keyboard running 3.4.2 firmware and it behaves like the PaperWhite. The headings only show the embedded font when "Publisher Font" is set to "on".

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Yes. For the entries labelled "Paperwhite II 5.8.11" I was using a real Paperwhite running that firmware. Likewise with the Kindle apps on various platforms.

In this case the real PaperWhite and the old Previewer behave the same. Everything else I tried works differently from those two.


Added: I pulled out my old Kindle Keyboard running 3.4.2 firmware and it behaves like the PaperWhite. The headings only show the embedded font when "Publisher Font" is set to "on".

(sigh). I was afraid that's what you meant. G*********!!!



Hitch

[jhowell]

Another test:

I found a book I had purchased previously that like my test book has an embedded font used for headings.

I sent it to my Paperwhite II and it arrived in KFX format. It behaved consistently with my test book, always showing the embedded font for headings no matter what font I chose to read in.

I deleted the book from the Kindle. I then used "Download & transfer via USB" to get the same book in azw3 (KF8) format and side loaded it to the same Kindle. In that format the headings only show the embedded font when "Publisher font" is selected.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Another test:

I found a book I had purchased previously that like my test book has an embedded font used for headings.

I sent it to my Paperwhite II and it arrived in KFX format. It behaved consistently with my test book, always showing the embedded font for headings no matter what font I chose to read in.

I deleted the book from the Kindle. I then used "Download & transfer via USB" to get the same book in azw3 (KF8) format and side loaded it to the same Kindle. In that format the headings only show the embedded font when "Publisher font" is selected.

Hmmm...I have some vague recollection of something like that. Not exactly that--but around fonts, yes. I have been told by Amazon that the sideloaded books, even those that are "Preview mobis" are not reliable indicators of whether a font displays, or not. It wasn't in this specific context; it was about another (exceedingly frustrating) issue. About the disappearing fonts.

The only way to really test this, then (she groans...) is through client books. Books that are coded correctly, but then put on sale. That don't display correctly in the KP 2.xx series, and don't display correctly when sideloaded.



Hitch

[JSWolf]

PW3 firmware 5.8.11

KFX does display the text surrounded by the <span> in the embedded font no matter which font is chosen. Also, when Publisher font is chosen, you get a serif font where there is no embedded font specified.

So KFX works as expected and KF8 is broken.

[Sella174]

If I were Amazon, I'd never have touched the monster called custom fonts.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Sella174

If I were Amazon, I'd never have touched the monster called custom fonts.

That's because you haven't had years of whining from the ePUB crowd about how EASY custom fonts are to use....or, truthfully, from INDD-based bookmakers ranting about how their eBook came out like dreck. {shrug}. Hell, what would you do, If you were them?


Hitch

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Hell, what would you do, If you were them?

"Tough!"

Paper and PDF are for perfect and artistic layouts - I'm stretching the definition of artistic here to include fonts, including script fonts.

The objective of an e-reader is to get the text across to the reader with minimum fuss. One way of doing that is to design a font that is easy to read on the screen. This would of course include the ability to scale, etc. For this to actually work, the little e-reader needs heaps of programming to understand the font; so font and e-reader are linked.

Now everyone and their dog wants to use fonts that the e-reader knows very little about and which are in probability very badly defined, e.g. kerning is absent. Here be monsters.

I'd tell them that that is the way it is, because that is what works. You want perfect layout with heaps of funny fonts, you do a paper book and/or a PDF.

[JSWolf]

All Amazon needed to do was to default to Publisher font if there is a font embedded and respect an embedded font via <span> for KF8. That would have solved the problem. But no, Amazon wants to do it all wrong and screw things up for both the eBook creator and the reader.

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by Sella174

Now everyone and their dog wants to use fonts that the e-reader knows very little about and which are in probability very badly defined, e.g. kerning is absent. Here be monsters.

I don't think Kindles use font kerning. Maybe KFX does, with its "enhanced typesetting".

Anyway, I've used embedded fonts in one series because the publisher insisted the ebooks used the same font as the printed ones. So these use the embedded Garamond font throughout, and that seems to work fine.
Otherwise, a few display fonts, as in the Fraktur one I used in the example that prompted this thread.
Or, when I need to have some Chinese characters, I embedded a Chinese font.

I'd rather we be allowed to use our own fonts if we choose. It's on you if you use a "monster". What's the alternative? We can only use fonts pre-approved by Amazon? No doubt sold by Amazon at a nice markup? Screw that. Or images of text? Ugh.

But many ebooks I see have useless and/or ugly fonts embedded, so I just delete them, and save a few MB while improving the appearance.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

All Amazon needed to do was to default to Publisher font if there is a font embedded and respect an embedded font via <span> for KF8. That would have solved the problem. But no, Amazon wants to do it all wrong and screw things up for both the eBook creator and the reader.

Sure, and what do people do? They switch off all those fancy author/publisher defined fonts because they want to read the text.

A big factor with fonts, especially the use of fancy fonts, is how people read. A fancy font works great when your reader reads by voicing each word by breaking it into syllables. It doesn't work if your reader reads whole words or groups of words through pattern recognition. In the latter case, fancy fonts slow down the reader, so it'll probably be switched off.

For the author, if fancy fonts are essential for your book, then IMO you're better off using PDF - which nearly all reading devices and printers can render correctly.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

But many ebooks I see have useless and/or ugly fonts embedded, so I just delete them, and save a few MB while improving the appearance.

The author/publisher of those e-books did not think those fonts were ugly, that's why they used and embedded them. And you did exactly what people are anyway doing, switching off those fonts.

[JSWolf]

The problem comes when an embedded font is actually needed. I've seen eBooks where embedded font(s) are used for special characters.

So embedded fonts can be for more than just a look.

[Sella174]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The problem comes when an embedded font is actually needed. I've seen eBooks where embedded font(s) are used for special characters.

So embedded fonts can be for more than just a look.

Fonts conforming to UTF-8, UTF-16, and so forth should all contain these special characters. Pushing for e-readers to be thusly compliant regarding their built-in fonts is IMO a better strategy.