Rant of a Reader

[BookHoarder]

And there I was, reading, getting the good vibes, or rather the tedious ones from grinding down a near 800 page Tad Williams door stop, and got distracted by the shiny stuff of Youtube. I saw a twilight zone episode, and remembered it from when it aired in my childhood. In this thread we have ranted against all the ones who look askance upon our bookish ways. But I bet none of us has ever had this guy's problem.

The episode is called "Time Enough at at Last", and either gives us the best case scenario for our habit or its absolute worst. When I watched it again after all these years I had one thing to say, "Laser eye surgery rules!"

[Deskisamess]

The episode is called "Time Enough at at Last",

I remember that episode. Burgess Meredith, right? Thick glasses...books galore?

[cfrizz]

That's what I said as well!

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Never mind.

[arjaybe]

Here is a comic which is pertinent to this discussion.

Here's a link to the original comic from the Seattle Star.

(Trying to directly insert it gave a really big image.)

Here's a link to the Seattle Star Sunday Comics section.

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by BookHoarder

The episode is called "Time Enough at at Last", and either gives us the best case scenario for our habit or its absolute worst. When I watched it again after all these years I had one thing to say, "Laser eye surgery rules!"

That episode really disturbed me as a kid. Just a really cruel fate....

[BadBilly]

Originally Posted by maddz

Exactly. What's being effectively said is people must put up with intrusion - even if they have explicitly stated they don't wish to be intruded upon - just because they are in public and hence de facto open to intrusion. Taking this to the logical conclusion, it means that it becomes acceptable to harass people - which to a woman on her own is frankly extremely unpleasant at best and downright dangerous at worst.

This discussion has brought back some rather unwelcome memories for me. When I was 16, I took a Saturday job at a local supermarket. In retrospect, alarm bells should have rung when at my interview I was told they expected female staff to wear skirts - "because we like to see ladies' legs". (Mind you, this was in the antediluvian 1970s.) Later, I was working in the stock room with a male colleague and was rather startled to be grabbed and kissed without any warning and without me signalling that such behaviour would be welcome. Needless to say, that job did not last much longer.

Yes, #MeToo.

This is just ridiculous, to equate the casual social interaction of small talk with sexual harassment or assault. If anyone doesn't know what appropriate boundaries are, I'd say it is someone who conflates chit-chat with harassment.

[BadBilly]

Originally Posted by Froide

Albert Mehrabian’s 7-38-55 Rule of Personal Communication and its successors (which refine the proportions but don't reorder them) disconfirm your assertion.

Mehrabian’s Elements of Personal Communication:
7% Verbal
38% Voice, Tone
55% Body Language

From the link you provided:

I have two arguments against the oversimplified interpretation of the “7-38-55 Rule.” In the first place, it is very difficult to quantify the impact of tone of voice and body language on the effectiveness of communication. Secondly, such quantifications are very subjective and cannot be applied as a rule to all contexts. Prof. Mehrabian himself has cautioned,

“Total Liking = 7% Verbal Liking + 38% Vocal Liking + 55% Facial Liking. Please note that this and other equations regarding relative importance of verbal and nonverbal messages were derived from experiments dealing with communications of feelings and attitudes (i.e., like—dislike). Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable.”

It certainly seems you missed a rather major caveat of the piece.

[maddz]

Originally Posted by BadBilly

This is just ridiculous, to equate the casual social interaction of small talk with sexual harassment or assault. If anyone doesn't know what appropriate boundaries are, I'd say it is someone who conflates chit-chat with harassment.

Sorry, it's harassment if people intrude on you despite being effectively told to leave me alone. And a man continuing to intrude on a woman is sexual harassment even if nothing overtly sexual is said.

I'm assuming by your forum name you're a man - this may not seem like sexual harassment to you but to a woman (especially one that is young or inexperienced) it may well come across as such. You may think you're casually chit-chatting, but your interlocutor may not so just back off and leave her alone.

Think about it - you're about to wait at a bus stop - there's a woman already there reading a book or looking at an electronic device:
Acceptable interaction - 'Excuse me, how long have you been waiting here?' (to gauge how long you may have to wait for the next bus)
Unacceptable interaction - to continue talking to her if she returns to her book or device after replying.

At a party or similar situation, continuing to talk to someone is part of the normal interaction (and I would consider it rude to be reading in those circumstances), but if a woman is obviously on her own and obviously minding her own business, then it's rude to expect her to engage in chit-chat beyond a brief factual question and response.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by maddz

Sorry, it's harassment if people intrude on you despite being effectively told to leave me alone. And a man continuing to intrude on a woman is sexual harassment even if nothing overtly sexual is said.

I'm assuming by your forum name you're a man - this may not seem like sexual harassment to you but to a woman (especially one that is young or inexperienced) it may well come across as such. You may think you're casually chit-chatting, but your interlocutor may not so just back off and leave her alone.

Sorry but I would have to disagree with you. Sexual harassment requires a sexual component. Though I have to admire your apparent double standard whereby if a male continues to speak to a female contrary to her desires, that constitutes sexual harassment whereas if a female continues to speak to a male, that would not constitute sexual harassment. I wonder what you would consider gay male talking to gay male? Or lesbian female talking to lesbian female? Or any of the other sexual permutations? Betan hermaphrodite, at least, I don't have to deal with.

To quote the definition of sexual harassment I must use at work: "defines sexual harassment as any conduct, comment, gesture, or contact of a sexual nature that is likely to cause offence or humiliation to any employee; or that might, on reasonable grounds, be perceived by that employee as placing a condition of a sexual nature on employment or on any opportunity for training or promotion."

So, IMNSHO, if someone sees you reading and insists on speaking to you despite your evident desire to be left alone, that does not constitute sexual harassment. If you find the conversation offensive or humiliating, that could constitute harassment but generally harassment is a pattern of behaviour persisting over time though a serious one-time incident can be considered harassment.

[4691mls]

As a woman, I do see a difference between an annoying person who won't stop talking vs sexual harassment. It's an I-know-it-when-I-see it thing. Besides just the words, which can be innocuous on their own, if one person (of any sex/orientation) is hitting on another there's also the way he/she is looking at you, body language, and just a general vibe.

The last time I had my car in the shop there were several people in the waiting room. One middle-aged woman had her dog with her and an older man talked on and on to her about dogs. It was apparent to me that after a while she was tired of the conversation and relieved when he left, but there wasn't anything sexual about it and she did not appear to feel threatened in any way, just tired of the conversation. I think the man was just a bored retiree who didn't have anything better to do while waiting. (This particular waiting room didn't have much in the way of magazines or anything else for customer entertainment, I guess they assume these days that everybody will bring their phones or tablets if they want entertainment.)

[BadBilly]

Originally Posted by maddz

Sorry, it's harassment if people intrude on you despite being effectively told to leave me alone. And a man continuing to intrude on a woman is sexual harassment even if nothing overtly sexual is said.

I'm assuming by your forum name you're a man - this may not seem like sexual harassment to you but to a woman (especially one that is young or inexperienced) it may well come across as such. You may think you're casually chit-chatting, but your interlocutor may not so just back off and leave her alone.

Think about it - you're about to wait at a bus stop - there's a woman already there reading a book or looking at an electronic device:
Acceptable interaction - 'Excuse me, how long have you been waiting here?' (to gauge how long you may have to wait for the next bus)
Unacceptable interaction - to continue talking to her if she returns to her book or device after replying.

At a party or similar situation, continuing to talk to someone is part of the normal interaction (and I would consider it rude to be reading in those circumstances), but if a woman is obviously on her own and obviously minding her own business, then it's rude to expect her to engage in chit-chat beyond a brief factual question and response.

Stop sexually harassing me. It is clear that you do not respect my feelings. I command you to engage in no further conversation with me. Your unwanted advances are rude and uncouth.

Thank goodness we live in an age where evidence is irrelevant. Some people might consider having to interact with other people, even if we don't want to, as just one of the compromises of society. They might even say that a nuisance is not the same as a threat.

[ZodWallop]

Thought of this thread yesterday. I have a coworker who insists on talking to me on my break regardless of what I am doing. She's not belligerent, just clueless.

Yesterday when I walked up to the seating area she was deeply involved playing some mahjong game on her phone. I thought I'd get a moments peace, but no. She started yakking when I sat down, while still absentmindedly fiddling with the phone.

That's why chatty people don't recognize you holding your phone/tablet/reader as a sign that you are absorbed. Because they aren't necessarily.

A reader is concentrating on an activity when they are looking at a little screen. Therefore they think everyone else looking at a little screen is concentrating as well.

A chatterer is just passing time on that little screen. So they assume everyone else is doing the same.

All this talk of what should be obviously perceived signs... perception is in the eye of the perceiver.

[wildhoney66]

i love the twilight zone and Time Enough at last is a great episode and if that was me i would have told her off. anyone keeping me from reading is gonna get a peace of my mind unless i'm at work of course, and if i am reading at the wrong time that's different. and i don't have kids either. anyways, i have the entire Twilight zone on dvd and even season 1 on blu-ray as well.

this may sound like a strange question but am i the only one that whenever i get really good and involved into a book my bladder says it's time to go. i hope that's not just me

[BookHoarder]

Originally Posted by wildhoney66

i love the twilight zone and Time Enough at last is a great episode and if that was me i would have told her off. anyone keeping me from reading is gonna get a peace of my mind unless i'm at work of course, and if i am reading at the wrong time that's different. and i don't have kids either. anyways, i have the entire Twilight zone on dvd and even season 1 on blu-ray as well.

this may sound like a strange question but am i the only one that whenever i get really good and involved into a book my bladder says it's time to go. i hope that's not just me

It's not just you. Usually it hits me toward a book's end. Then I find myself trying to hold it all in while trying to finish the book. I know I could just put the book down, do my business, and then come back to it. But who cares about common sense when you're trying to find out if the villain is getting theirs in the end.

Anyway, a little while back I posted about an experiment I was conducting to solve the tactile memory problem that comes from reading Ebooks. My theory was to google search an image of the cover of the book I was reading, size it and print it out, laminate, and secure it to my Ereader cover with Velcro tabs. Total crafting cost about 1.00-1.25 USD.

I am pleased to report that for the most part I am happy with this method. I have done this with 4 books, and the results are most promising. The first is that I am better focusing, and retaining what I've read on my current book, and the second is more of a happy side-effect. The custom cover on the ereader is actually announcing to those pesky chatterers that I'm reading a book. They are tending to leave me be rather than attempt the dreaded 'social interaction'. Even the most anti-book, pro-social media tech enthusiast, knows a book cover when they see one.

Back in the day I was one of those readers who judged a book by its cover. Any book art by Michael Whelan convinced me that the book had to be amazing. It was not always the case, but one should not argue with Whelan.

So every two to three weeks my ereader cover gets a change. Pros are the visually appealing aspect of book covers, the convenience of a ereader, and the focus that comes from the almost tricking your brain into believing you are reading from a dead tree format. Cons I can't go back to paper, no matter how good those dead trees smelled, because of the amount of money I've spent into ebooks. People know what I'm reading, and I won't lie about it with a false cover. Another is I find myself unwilling to abandon a boring book if I've invested the time to craft a cover for it. That might actually be a pro since I kind of have a completion complex.

If anyone else has attempted this please post up about it, share your thoughts about how it goes for you. I'm not advocating going back to paper, but sometimes the old ways are still good ways.

[Deskisamess]

If anyone else has attempted this please post up about it, share your thoughts about how it goes for you.

Attempted what? I read 2-3 fiction books per week, and I don't need to see the covers, nor have anyone else see them. Finding a cover, printing it out, and laminating it, and attaching Velcro? Seriously?