Can free e-books be pirated? - Page 3

pdurrant · 01-29-2017, 10:22 AM

It all depends.

DiapDealer · 01-29-2017, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Interesting.

So you state that the WBM actually *didn't* archive the book, but only the link to it; and the original giveaway site kept the page up, but removed the link *without* removing the actual book. That would mean that I downloaded the book from the *original* website, and only used the WBM to find the actual link.

If, and only if, we're talking about a normal transaction-type process to obtain a free book. It may be another story if someone is hosting a drm-free copy of an ebook for download via a direct link (though I still don't believe WBM would be hosting the file itself for download). It would fairly trivial to determine where the file is actually being served from by examining the headers during such a transaction. I would be extremely surprised to find that anything other than web pages were being stored on a WBM server.

Katsunami · 01-29-2017, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

If, and only if, we're talking about a normal transaction-type process to obtain a free book. It may be another story if someone is hosting a drm-free copy of an ebook for download via a direct link (though I still don't believe WBM would be hosting the file itself for download).

These books are normally hosted using direct links to an EPUB. It's not like 'buying' a free book; it's just downloading a file.

Quote:

It would fairly trivial to determine where the file is actually being served from by examining the headers during such a transaction. I would be extremely surprised to find that anything other than web pages were being stored on a WBM server.

It has been years since I downloaded that book, and that was only a week or so after the giveaway. I would be surprised if it's still online.

Jessica Lares · 01-29-2017, 12:01 PM

WBM does archive individual files. They are apparently protected by the safe harboring rules in the DMCA. The store would be the one liable for not protecting their content from being cached.

But you are still knowingly downloading copyrighted material and thus are committing piracy. The loophole wouldn't excuse it.

johnnyb · 01-29-2017, 01:12 PM

I think it really depends on the terms and conditions of the promotion. If it states a date, and you acquire the book past that date, it’s not acquired under the terms and conditions of the giveaway.
That being said, it’s really stupid of the site not to take the files down. The Wayback Machine cannot be faulted for storing sites that contain links that should not work anymore.
If however, the download comes from the WM servers, it is up to them to delete those files.
In any case: if the promotion is over, you are not entitled to that free download anymore.

nabsltd · 01-29-2017, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It may be breach of copyright to use the Wayback Machine to get the eBook. I don't see it as a moral issue to get it since the eBook is not available for sale and is no longer available for free.

This is what it really comes down to...pretty much all copying of ebooks not explicitly permitted by the publisher is copyright infringement, but only a few of those ways are wrong (immoral) or harmful to the author.

crich70 · 01-30-2017, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Distributing the book is not one of the points here.

Even when you BUY 20.000 Leagues under the Sea, or get it for free from a site that made the ebook such as Feedbooks.com, you can't distribute it. Even though the text is out of copyright, you're still not allowed to actually distribute the book made by someone else as far as I know.

I'm talking about if *getting* the book for yourself, trough an old, archived copy of the giveaway page, is piracy or not, after the giveaway has ended and the book becomes unavailable or not free.

And aren't new translations under copyright even if the book isn't? I mean take "Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Seas" as an example again. It was originally in French and then translated. If I make a new translation then even if the book itself is in the PD then it would seem that my copy (in a new translation) would be under copyright.

crich70 · 01-30-2017, 12:53 AM

Even 'free' books from a site like Smashwords ask you to 'buy your own copy' if you didn't purchase the copy that you are reading. So I'd have to say that it depends on the circumstances as well. The books at PG are supposed to be PD, though when we rebuild them and put a new cover on I have to wonder if that makes them under some sort of copyright in a way, or not.

darryl · 01-30-2017, 01:52 AM

As another poster correctly pointed out, the Wayback Machine is not the official site. It is a snapshot of that site at a particular date hosted by an unrelated party. The owner of the site archived may or may not even know that their site will be archived and available to the public as at a particular date. Clearly if an ebook is offered for free for a particular period the owner is not intending that it be free for download indefinitely from any other site. Nor is it granting any sort of licence for the Wayback Machine to distribute the work. When you download it is the Wayback Machine which is infringing copyright. As the WBM provides a very valuable (and automated) internet service I would hope that it is entitled to some sort of safe harbour protection. Certainly it would need to respond to a DMCA takedown notice if the servers are in the US. As to whether you yourself infringe copyright? You have downloaded it from a source that was not licensed to distribute it? Even if this is infringement, you may well have a good defence. Could/should you know the WBM is not licensed. We may eventually get an answer in at least some countries if rights holders try to sue endusers for downloading. If this occurs it may wll be a video streaming case.

Sweetpea · 01-30-2017, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

- Yes. If they're not officially available (or they're being sold), using the Way Back Machine to get it (for free) is piracy.
- No. Using the Way Back Machine, you get the book directly from the official site, even if it's an old, archived version.
- No opinion/don't care.

What's your opinion on this matter?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if the Way Back Machine manages to grab the official page and the book, getting it from there isn't piracy, not even if the book is unavailable or on sale. You're still getting it from the official site, even if it's an old version.

For me, yes, it's piracy. It was for free in a certain time and place. No matter if you somehow manage to go to the site as it was in that time, in this time it's no longer free.

(this doesn't mean I think the owner of the book isn't silly for not keeping it available for a price...)

Katsunami · 01-30-2017, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

As another poster correctly pointed out, the Wayback Machine is not the official site. ... If this occurs it may wll be a video streaming case.

Good points, but even this is murky water. Yes, the WBM is not the official site, but DiapDealer said a few posts up that the WBM doesn't archive files; it only archives pages.

Thus, *IF* a book can be downloaded through a WBM page, it would mean that it is still hosted at the original, official site, even though the link was taken from the newer page. So if you have the link (saved it, then forgot to download the book), or you find it somehow (through the WBM, or a different site), the book still comes off the original, official site/servers.

Cinisajoy · 01-30-2017, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

And aren't new translations under copyright even if the book isn't? I mean take "Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Seas" as an example again. It was originally in French and then translated. If I make a new translation then even if the book itself is in the PD then it would seem that my copy (in a new translation) would be under copyright.

The story itself no. Anything you added, yes.
So yes you could sell It, give it away, turn it into paper sailboats but you cannot send me a takedown notice if I decide to publish an illustrated version of the same story or even my own translation. Unless I put in your introduction.

Cinisajoy · 01-30-2017, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Good points, but even this is murky water. Yes, the WBM is not the official site, but DiapDealer said a few posts up that the WBM doesn't archive files; it only archives pages.

Thus, *IF* a book can be downloaded through a WBM page, it would mean that it is still hosted at the original, official site, even though the link was taken from the newer page. So if you have the link (saved it, then forgot to download the book), or you find it somehow (through the WBM, or a different site), the book still comes off the original, official site/servers.

On this book, could it be possible the site owner didn't have permission to host the book in the first place. (You don't strike me as the type to read self-published authors. )

Katsunami · 01-30-2017, 10:38 AM

Campbellian Anthology:
http://www.rampantloonmedia.com/campbellian.html

They hosted the 2013 and 2014 versions. Then 2015 got assigned to someone else, was started and announced, and then never appeared. The 2016 version is/was here: http://www.badmenagerie.com/campbellbook2016/

As you can see at Rampant Loon Media, the page and links for the 2014 version are still up, but the files are gone. There are/were loads of mirror sites though, so I can imagine 2014 can still be downloaded somewhere. It was the 2013 version that I found through the WBM.

This series only has three books up until now: 2013, 2014, and 2016.

Katsunami · 01-30-2017, 10:46 AM

Oh... and yes, the WBM *does* archive files.

At the Rampant Loon Media page, the links are all dead. If you find that page in the WBM however, you can *still* download the 2014 Campbellian Anthology. Tell you what. Even the links to the mirror sites still work there.

I'm sure that if I had to, I could dig up 2013 as well.

View Poll Results: Can free e-books be pirated?
Yes. If not available (or on sale), the Way Back Machine to get it (for free) is piracy.	27	45.76%
No. The Way Back Machine archives official sites, so you're getting it from the (old) official site.	19	32.20%
No opinion / Don't care.	13	22.03%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

01-30-2017, 10:38 AM	#44
Katsunami Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,111 Karma: 34000001 Join Date: Mar 2008 Device: KPW1, KA1	Campbellian Anthology: http://www.rampantloonmedia.com/campbellian.html They hosted the 2013 and 2014 versions. Then 2015 got assigned to someone else, was started and announced, and then never appeared. The 2016 version is/was here: http://www.badmenagerie.com/campbellbook2016/ As you can see at Rampant Loon Media, the page and links for the 2014 version are still up, but the files are gone. There are/were loads of mirror sites though, so I can imagine 2014 can still be downloaded somewhere. It was the 2013 version that I found through the WBM. This series only has three books up until now: 2013, 2014, and 2016. Last edited by Katsunami; 01-30-2017 at 10:48 AM.

01-30-2017, 10:46 AM	#45
Katsunami Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,111 Karma: 34000001 Join Date: Mar 2008 Device: KPW1, KA1	Oh... and yes, the WBM does archive files. At the Rampant Loon Media page, the links are all dead. If you find that page in the WBM however, you can still download the 2014 Campbellian Anthology. Tell you what. Even the links to the mirror sites still work there. I'm sure that if I had to, I could dig up 2013 as well. Last edited by Katsunami; 01-30-2017 at 10:49 AM.

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01-29-2017, 10:22 AM	#31
pdurrant The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠 Posts: 71,506 Karma: 306214458 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Norfolk, England Device: Kindle Voyage	It all depends.

01-29-2017, 12:01 PM	#34
Jessica Lares Wizard Posts: 2,240 Karma: 5759170 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Near Dallas, Texas, USA Device: iPad Mini, iPod Touch (5th gen)	WBM does archive individual files. They are apparently protected by the safe harboring rules in the DMCA. The store would be the one liable for not protecting their content from being cached. But you are still knowingly downloading copyrighted material and thus are committing piracy. The loophole wouldn't excuse it.

01-29-2017, 01:12 PM	#35
johnnyb Cloud Reader Posts: 1,110 Karma: 4000066 Join Date: Aug 2010 Device: Kindle Oasis, Kindle Scribe, iPad Pro 11	I think it really depends on the terms and conditions of the promotion. If it states a date, and you acquire the book past that date, it’s not acquired under the terms and conditions of the giveaway. That being said, it’s really stupid of the site not to take the files down. The Wayback Machine cannot be faulted for storing sites that contain links that should not work anymore. If however, the download comes from the WM servers, it is up to them to delete those files. In any case: if the promotion is over, you are not entitled to that free download anymore.

01-30-2017, 12:53 AM	#38
crich70 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,305 Karma: 43993832 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Monroe Wisconsin Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)	Even 'free' books from a site like Smashwords ask you to 'buy your own copy' if you didn't purchase the copy that you are reading. So I'd have to say that it depends on the circumstances as well. The books at PG are supposed to be PD, though when we rebuild them and put a new cover on I have to wonder if that makes them under some sort of copyright in a way, or not.

01-30-2017, 01:52 AM	#39
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	As another poster correctly pointed out, the Wayback Machine is not the official site. It is a snapshot of that site at a particular date hosted by an unrelated party. The owner of the site archived may or may not even know that their site will be archived and available to the public as at a particular date. Clearly if an ebook is offered for free for a particular period the owner is not intending that it be free for download indefinitely from any other site. Nor is it granting any sort of licence for the Wayback Machine to distribute the work. When you download it is the Wayback Machine which is infringing copyright. As the WBM provides a very valuable (and automated) internet service I would hope that it is entitled to some sort of safe harbour protection. Certainly it would need to respond to a DMCA takedown notice if the servers are in the US. As to whether you yourself infringe copyright? You have downloaded it from a source that was not licensed to distribute it? Even if this is infringement, you may well have a good defence. Could/should you know the WBM is not licensed. We may eventually get an answer in at least some countries if rights holders try to sue endusers for downloading. If this occurs it may wll be a video streaming case.

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