Very disappointed with the way the tech is developing.

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by harryE123

I am happy that you like your reader but it's offensive to suggest that just because some of us have been reading these forums for more than four years and expected that by then we'd eventually get some device larger than 6" with a very good screen, cross platform standards for ebooks (and not tied to particular vendors), intuitive os's etc. etc. etc. are just bitching for nothing. There have been a large number of people who would agree with me, surely they are not all misguided just because you like your digital reader.

Personally, I think that the way you've attacked everyone who dares to disagree with you is offensive. Nor is it impressive that you've been "reading these forums" for more than four years.

Originally Posted by harryE123

It's close to self evident to anyone following this kind of tech that it hasn't evolved as we hoped...

Tech never evolves the way you'd expect. Get over it. The fact that the Kindle is Amazon's number one selling product is, in and of itself, an amazing and positive development. And by Christmas, we'll probably see a number of 6" devices selling for around $100. Are you disappointed in that?

[cmdahler]

Originally Posted by harryE123

What are you talking about?

Dude, the guy was just trolling. Don't bother.

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Dude, the guy was just trolling. Don't bother.

Absolutely not.

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by harryE123

You have some issue with textbooks and you want hyperlinks in them and all that blah, yet textbooks are what 99.999% of people read to educate themselves. So why would a good eink reader suffer from the lack of video or hyperlinks (and btw flash is proprietary format for video so no need to say flash and video...) since all textbooks don't have these and yet no one is really missing them. Why would you need video or hyperlinks for textbook in maths or literature? A good eink reader able to handle colour and fast enough would be the perfect alternative for a paper textbook because it would emulate a real life one. You don't see people running on the streets complaining for lack of (the very distracting and counter to any concentration) hyperlinks and videos, people are very happy thank you very much with text books as they are, and they'd be happier if they could have them on a good eink device too for portability. Some kids might get their kicks from video too, and they might not be bothered with the lcd eye strain, but that's not to say that the rest, the vast majority, won't prefer an eink reader.

And btw why the smarty [sic] after the ipad, should I have spelled it iPad instead?

I'm not sure that the world needs an electronic device that emulates a paper textbook. That seems a little short-sighted to me. On the other hand, a tablet computer looks like a great platform to produce textbooks that do a lot more, so why turn your back on all that potential?

Flash is more than just video, so it wasn't redundant to list it as well as video.

Yeah, and the "[sic]" was a dig. I can be as petty as the next guy.

[Fbone]

One area where the tech has been slow is battery life. The latest group of tablets get less than 10 hours with some as low as 4 hours. That wouldnt be long enough to get a person through a typical work or school day.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by HamsterRage

Personally, I think that the way you've attacked everyone who dares to disagree with you is offensive. Nor is it impressive that you've been "reading these forums" for more than four years.



Tech never evolves the way you'd expect. Get over it. The fact that the Kindle is Amazon's number one selling product is, in and of itself, an amazing and positive development. And by Christmas, we'll probably see a number of 6" devices selling for around $100. Are you disappointed in that?

Of course he will be because he wants something larger than 6".

One of the main & most beneficial attractions of the 5 & 6" readers is that they are lighter than pbooks & you can carry it around with your entire library if you so choose. The whole intent of the majority of ereaders is to be PORTABLE! A coffee table book size ereader kind of defeats that purpose.

They are focusing on the largest market segment for book readers which is most likely readers of novels.

Don't like it, stick with pbooks. But for the vast majority of us, we are satisfied with how the progress is going with the ebook market. Or actually most of us don't give a crap, since we are too busy reading our books on our 5 & 6" readers!

[emellaich]

I'm not sure I agree with HarryE123, but I do think I can put some of his thoughts in perspective for some of you. It's a matter of history for some of us old timers here.

EInk was founded in 1997 -- thirteen years ago. Since that time, many of us have been waiting for products. The devices we have now are excellent, but in many ways they are still first generation devices. I agree that eink is much better than an Ipad in terms of eye strain. I had an Ipad for a couple of weeks, and I just like eink better.

However, the Ipad has a real advantage in interactivity. For example, I just read another thread about needing to skip back a few pages to refer to an early section of the book. Being able to navigate around is much easier on an Ipad type of device. Or being able to read academic pdf's (sorry that's the only way they come) and navigate around by dragging them.

Since 1997, we've been looking at eink struggle to come to market, struggle to produce a big screen that wouldn't crack in real usage, work on faster page response and color. It's not that I'm looking for a computer, but faster, flexible and even color screens do have uses (annotation, highlighting, etc.).

And its not just eink. Those of us who have been around for a while have struggled with many earlier iterations: CRT's, laptops, tablet computers, palm pilots, ebookman, newtons, rocket readers and more.

The thing is that when you look at the changes in personal and palmtop computing over the last 33 years since the Apple II is introduced, the progress on e-ink is quite disappointing. If my goal is a dedicated reading device, I would think it would be quite a bit simpler than some of the other things that were done with portable electronics.

The problem may be the target market. I don't think those of us here on Mobileread have agreed on how many people actually read ( https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95790 ). However, let's say that you do believe the Forrester Research quote that 33 million (in the US) read at least 2 books a month. I would think that the target market of those who would spend $130 (or more) on a dedicated reading device would only be those who read heavier amounts. Now of those 10% who read at least 24 books a year, how many are techno-phobes? Or in love with the printed book? Or at an age where they are more resistant to new technology? The point is that the target market for ebooks is probably much less than 10% (5%?) and a reasonable penetration of that target is an even smaller sliver of pie. Manufacturers may not see enough incentive to invest more than a small piece of their resources in the dedicated market. On the other hand, a multi-purpose (iPad?) device may be more attractive to them.

[leebase]

There is just not enough of an advantage to eink to support advanced products in the wake of the iPad. The advanced ereading functionality is going to come in the form of iPad apps and android apps to follow.

Lee

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by emellaich

Since 1997, we've been looking at eink struggle to come to market, struggle to produce a big screen that wouldn't crack in real usage, work on faster page response and color. It's not that I'm looking for a computer, but faster, flexible and even color screens do have uses (annotation, highlighting, etc.).

And its not just eink. Those of us who have been around for a while have struggled with many earlier iterations: CRT's, laptops, tablet computers, palm pilots, ebookman, newtons, rocket readers and more.

The thing is that when you look at the changes in personal and palmtop computing over the last 33 years since the Apple II is introduced, the progress on e-ink is quite disappointing. If my goal is a dedicated reading device, I would think it would be quite a bit simpler than some of the other things that were done with portable electronics.

The catch is that new technologies that do something drastically different take more time to mature. Look at the computer itself. It took 20-30 years to develop into something that you could even fit into your home. Another 10 to become mass-produced, another 10 shrink into something like a laptop, and another 10 to move into the ultra-portable space (the stuff smaller than a deck of cards we have today).

LCDs like are used today started back in 1972. It took 20 years to make it into products the consumer could buy and hook up to a computer (roughly). Another 10 to become cheap enough to completely replace the CRT.

The difference here is that a new display tech took 10 years to go from concept to real product. That's not bad. They found a market that can fund the development of the technology. That it was more mainstream than the market for a mainframe + a few dozen dumb terminals is also huge.

Integrated Circuits were absolutely huge, and involved 10+ years of work to produce transistors that allows consumer electronics to function, let alone the extra work that took that and developed it into a way to create the silicon circuits required for ICs.

So keep in mind that there has been a pretty big struggle behind a lot of the major developments that drove advances in electronics and computing.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by Kolenka

The catch is that new technologies that do something drastically different take more time to mature. Look at the computer itself. It took 20-30 years to develop into something that you could even fit into your home. Another 10 to become mass-produced, another 10 shrink into something like a laptop, and another 10 to move into the ultra-portable space (the stuff smaller than a deck of cards we have today).

LCDs like are used today started back in 1972. It took 20 years to make it into products the consumer could buy and hook up to a computer (roughly). Another 10 to become cheap enough to completely replace the CRT.

The difference here is that a new display tech took 10 years to go from concept to real product. That's not bad. They found a market that can fund the development of the technology. That it was more mainstream than the market for a mainframe + a few dozen dumb terminals is also huge.

Integrated Circuits were absolutely huge, and involved 10+ years of work to produce transistors that allows consumer electronics to function, let alone the extra work that took that and developed it into a way to create the silicon circuits required for ICs.

So keep in mind that there has been a pretty big struggle behind a lot of the major developments that drove advances in electronics and computing.

The thing about ebook readers is that much of the technology for producing them is available. Software for rendering high-quality text has been around for a long time. Yes, the displays will be a bit slow to develop, but there are many other areas of development in the reader space that have gone ignored, even though the software and hardware have been around for quite a while. At a fundamental level, they're glorified text viewers...and the newest Sony readers still do not have real italics. That is just pathetic.

Apologists can try to vindicate the lack of development with excuses regarding financial viability, but as a consumer, I don't care.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

The thing about ebook readers is that much of the technology for producing them is available. Software for rendering high-quality text has been around for a long time. Yes, the displays will be a bit slow to develop, but there are many other areas of development in the reader space that have gone ignored, even though the software and hardware have been around for quite a while. At a fundamental level, they're glorified text viewers...and the newest Sony readers still do not have real italics. That is just pathetic.

Apologists can try to vindicate the lack of development with excuses regarding financial viability, but as a consumer, I don't care.

Things like missing support for italics is annoying, yes. It's part of the problem of using a central SDK that some third party provides for you to build a product around, rather than a spec for some common format and functionality. And Adobe won't let you use their DRM if you don't use their SDK (a big reason I suspect Apple wrote their own ePub renderer from scratch). Things that should be in Sony's control, aren't right now without breaking compatibility with the ADEPT DRM.

But when someone comments on eInk displays, I respond to their comment. I wasn't trying to discuss the issues with software development, and the myriad of legal issues that have made software development a minefield these days. That can be a huge rant onto itself. This whole response is a bit of a tangent from eInk to the media format.

The simple fact that DRM has fractured the market and there are multiple formats is not a good thing in the long term. The whole industry has really gotten into a bad position because the publishers don't know what they need for a digital format yet. The technical companies don't know how to cooperate on a format for the sake of keeping the market healthy. And to top it all off, OEMs tend to also be book sellers, and not have a ton of software expertise in this area. They have to buy it (Mobipocket) or partner with someone who has it (Adobe). It's a bit of a mess, but I'm not entirely surprised for a first attempt into digital publishing with an industry that quite honestly, never took the market very seriously until the last year or so.

[dapriuk]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

The thing about ebook readers is that much of the technology for producing them is available. Software for rendering high-quality text has been around for a long time. Yes, the displays will be a bit slow to develop, but there are many other areas of development in the reader space that have gone ignored, even though the software and hardware have been around for quite a while. At a fundamental level, they're glorified text viewers...and the newest Sony readers still do not have real italics. That is just pathetic.

Apologists can try to vindicate the lack of development with excuses regarding financial viability, but as a consumer, I don't care.

Kolenka gives a summary of product development reality not an "apology".

Consumer products and their capabilities have arisen purely from market drivers, so consumers only have themselves to blame if things haven't quite turned out as they wish.

If current solutions don't meet your needs you can do something about it; write some alternative software yourself, or fund a company or team to do it for you. But beware the legal and commercial entaglements that are rife in technology products and services - creating a technical solution is hard but comparatively straightforward compared to being able to actually sell the product.

If instead you only demand your "consumer rights" with everything at the least cost then I fear you will likely become increasingly dissappointed.

[Richey79]

Originally Posted by leebase

There is just not enough of an advantage to eink to support advanced products in the wake of the iPad. The advanced ereading functionality is going to come in the form of iPad apps and android apps to follow.

I think the main problem for eink tech development is that most people - certainly occasional readers (the iPad early adopters who raced to install a free book on their new device and will never read it) and even a few heavier readers who aren't bothered by eye-strain on backlit devices - would agree with Lee's opinions.

Most people who have an interest in reading won't even have seen an eink display, and certainly wouldn't go out of their way to seek one out to try. For many of those who are happy to use devices such as the iPad to read, it is far more important that they can convince themselves it is the best device to read on than that it actually be the best device to read on. They want to be able to say 'I own the best device for reading ebooks. I am a reader,' rather than actually read books (apologies to those serious readers who actually do find backlit displays give a comfortable reading experience).

So, to give this majority of 'convergence device' users, the next development in ebooks is more likely to be increasingly interactive 'Books 2.0TM' with sound effects, links to Wikipedia pages and wizzy graphics, rather than actual screen developments in dedicated ereaders. Publishers (Apple certainly have aspirations to milk this market segment as well as hardware sales) will like this, as it will give a justification for keeping ebooks as expensive - if not more so - than pbooks.

The ebook future profit lies with those who think that an accelerometer mini-game integrated into page fifteen would be a good thing. This will be the 'advanced ereading functionality' Lee speaks of.

Who knows, perhaps the sales-success of the K3 will demonstrate that there is a decent-sized market out there for a dedicated device with a high-quality screen. For the time being, though, the screen that makes money is going to be a 6" one.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by dapriuk

Kolenka gives summary is of product development reality not an "apology".

Consumer products and their capabilities have arisen purely from market drivers, so consumers only have themselves to blame if things haven't quite turned out as they wish.

If current solutions don't meet your needs you can do something about it; write some alternative software yourself, or fund a company or team to do it for you. But beware the legal and commercial entaglements that are rife in technology products and services - creating a technical solution is hard but comparatively straightforward compared to being able to actually sell the product.

If instead you only demand your "consumer rights" with everything at the least cost then I fear you will likely become increasingly dissappointed.

I did not accuse the poster I was replying to of being an apologist, and I made no mention of "consumer rights".

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by harryE123

it's not that the public is not ready for 9.7" it's that no one can undercut amazon in the price to offer something similar because amazon is subsidising it with book sales. That's why irex went bust, it has neither amazon's clout nor it's business model, and it's in the business model. Plus, we are in a recession and already plenty of gadgets pry for attention, smart phones, ipads, gadgets of all sorts, computers...it's not easy for a single purpose book reading device. Plus someone has to create the market as per usual, the way apple does. But apple right now is killing everyone with a combines product that to some people is better than a single purpose e-reader. So if we oversimplify all these we reach the wrong conclusions.

But trust me, the market is there, and the public is ready, a decent a4 or close pdf e-reader will be a best seller in academia and people who read lots of technical articles for example.

I think you are wrong in your characterisation of the way amazon are with the KDX, unlike with their smaller models they are not pricing it overly aggressively to keep others out of the market, the pricing of tablets is probably a far bigger reason why we haven't seen more large e-ink devices because unless you did have a full a4 reader then the greater flexibility of an lcd with regards scrolling, zooming etc. would tend to outweigh the downsides.