Piracy: And the impressions the publishing industry hold of e-books/ers.

[b_k]

Originally Posted by k2r

#!chris

(of course you could still buy a book, take it apart, scan it and throw the physical book away. Might be an interesting business model, you buy your book at my store and I'll scan it and give you the pdf (and maybe the physical book, too) I have to do the numbers on that and ask a lawyer :-) )

I basically was thinking about the same idea, but I doubt that this is allowed. Though you are already paying fees on every device (scanners, printers, copiers, etc.) for multiplying printed content here. This is nuts, isn't it?

[slayda]

I've always been concerned about the unidirection that society places on "piracy". What about publishers that; 1) use DRM such that you are restricted to a single device, 2) require a special device to read their books, 3) charge prices as high as pbooks even though the cost of ebooks is much lower - i.e. no paper, ink, labor or facilities to produce & distribute, no middle man, etc.

We're being ripped off by the publishers with ebooks but are they called "priates", "theives", or any such emotional words. They have the big bucks and lobby to make "piracy laws" so that what they do is legal "stealing".

Hopefully ebooks will elliminate publishers and I think that's what they are affraid of more than piracy. By making what we want illegal or at least questionable they maintain control. However they are really no longer needed. Authors (with appropriate editors/proofreaders) can work without them and sell their products through simple brookers in a similar way that Wal Mart sells individual songs via the Internet.

Baen has the right idea. Look at their site, The authors are making more royalities and the good authors are actually giving away free ebooks of their older books - good advertising for their newer books. This is also very Darwinian - only the best will continue to be supported.

Enough rant - my two cents worth.

[ultim8fury]

Baen has it's own set of problems though. From very poor site design through to a lack of content. It could be great but it need some work.

[bingle]

Originally Posted by slayda

I've always been concerned about the unidirection that society places on "piracy". What about publishers that; 1) use DRM such that you are restricted to a single device, 2) require a special device to read their books, 3) charge prices as high as pbooks even though the cost of ebooks is much lower - i.e. no paper, ink, labor or facilities to produce & distribute, no middle man, etc.

There's the other unidirectional aspect, too - the entire purpose of copyright, the reason it exists, is to expand the public domain. By restricting works from entering the public domain, either by bad laws or DRM, the publishers are breaking their side of the bargain - they benefit, and society suffers.

I think that's the worst part. And I read an interesting comment the other day, along the lines that most people don't ever expect things to become public domain, since nothing has in their lifetime. Most people would probably think that "Who owns the copyright on Shakespeare's plays?" is a perfectly valid question.

[rmeister0]

Originally Posted by slayda

I've always been concerned about the unidirection that society places on "piracy". What about publishers that; 1) use DRM such that you are restricted to a single device, 2) require a special device to read their books, 3) charge prices as high as pbooks even though the cost of ebooks is much lower - i.e. no paper, ink, labor or facilities to produce & distribute, no middle man, etc.

None of this is illegal; this is, in theory, what market forces are supposed to deal with. But it doesn't constitute theft or piracy because doing 1, 2 or 3 in any combination does not deprive you of something you owned before they did 1, 2 or 3.

#3 is, in particular, "what the market will bear". Books of all kinds have never been subjected to price controls in the U.S. as far as I can remember.

When someone steals from a copyright owner, the copyright owner has no choice in the matter. Piracy IS a uni-directional issue here; someone reproduces works that someone else owns the rights to reproduce.

But you as a consumer have every choice in the world not to buy anything encumbered by 1, 2 or 3.

France had the right idea - force all DRM systems to inter-op. Then real competition can happen; but that will never fly in this country because DRM is really about customer lock-in and has nothing to do with preventing unauthorized redistribution.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by rmeister0

None of this is illegal; this is, in theory, what market forces are supposed to deal with. But it doesn't constitute theft or piracy because doing 1, 2 or 3 in any combination does not deprive you of something you owned before they did 1, 2 or 3.

That's not strictly true.

When I purchase an object, I have certain rights. I have the right to re-sell that object, modify that object, etc. I pretty much have the right to do with that object anything I wish short of dropping it into a magic duplication machine and creating another one.

I believe that the problem here is semantics and a bit of ethics bending.

When I "purchase" an eBook (or iTunes song, or something like that), I am not - from a legal point of view - purchasing that e-object. I am - from a legal point of view - licensing it.

Of course, when I license something, I have far fewer rights to that something. The problem is that throughout the transaction it's called a "purchase." So I have the expections of a "purchase" (i.e. I can pretty much do whatever I want with it).

Stores that "sell" eBooks with DRM are not "selling" the eBook. They are licensing it. Of course, a big disclaimer that basically says, "You aren't buying this eBook. You are licensing it from us for a limited time to use on a limited device a limited number of times" won't help them sell eBooks. So they hide that in tiny-print, legal-ese under a link called "read license" (which no one clicks on).

IHMO, they are committing fraud by calling the transaction a "purchase" and by not being clear on what the true nature of the transaction is.

How far do you think Ford would get by allowing you to "purchase" a new car and then disabling the car whenever they want, making you pay more money to use the car?

Originally Posted by rmeister0

France had the right idea - force all DRM systems to inter-op. Then real competition can happen; but that will never fly in this country because DRM is really about customer lock-in and has nothing to do with preventing unauthorized redistribution.

Actually, France's decision is to remove DRM. Interop DRM is, in effect, open DRM which means that the secret that allows the DRM to protect the content will be known by anyone. Therefore the DRM cannot perform it's function of protecting content.

[Moonraker]

I resent this word "License"

If I am licensing something it means I have not purchased it.
I do not own it. I am "renting" it.

Therefore, why do I have to pay purchase tax on it when I first buy the damn thing?

I have a driver's license - I paid no purchase tax on it.
I have a TV license - no purchase tax payable - a yearly fee to the BBC only which is not purchase tax.
If I rent a house or apartment I pay rent but no tax - The Landlord has to pay income tax only.

“When liberty becomes license, dictatorship is near” (Will Durant).

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by ultim8fury

Baen has it's own set of problems though. From very poor site design through to a lack of content. It could be great but it need some work.

I'm curious about your specific issues. Remember that the Baen site takes you to Webscriptions -- where there're more than 375 SF and Fantasy novels available for purchase -- and to the Baen Free Library with 84 novels completely free, with NO DRM. I do realize that all that is no help if you're not looking for SF and Fantasy, but within that realm it's a pretty broad selection of stuff.

Specific critique of the "very poor design" might also be useful. Baen's web collaborator checks in here now and then (Hi Arnold!), and might find your comments useful. He has a pretty full plate, though.

Xenophon

[Riocaz]

Not sure about the lack of content comment. As I don't have any problems on that score. But critique of their web-design:

The website looks more like the average fan-site 7-8 years ago than that of a professional publisher.

Cluttered, with an overly busy background & glaring colours.

[ultim8fury]

My criticisms of baen match what Riocaz has stated above. The site looks old, it could seriously use an overhaul. The background need to go. Replace the site with something that says book shop rather than ancient fan-site. Make the navigation more intuitive, loose all the dark colours, it'll make the place more welcoming. Currently the front page has no common elements with the catalogue section. It feels like multiple sites. Bring it together have a common interface throughout the site. The suggestions I have made are a hell of a lot of work but I do think it would make a big difference to people when they first view the site.

As for content. Not one of my favourite SF/Fantasy authors are listed and those that are have a seriously limited back library.

Eg.

Raymond Feist - not listed
Trudi canavan - not listed
Stephen Baxter - not listed
Robin Hobb - not listed

Ben Bova - only 2 titles

I appreciate what they are doing by offering DRM free e-books and it's great that someone is out there trying to push the envelope so don't take my post as flaming the site. I'm not. I just feel it could use some attention.

[bingle]

Originally Posted by ultim8fury

As for content. Not one of my favourite SF/Fantasy authors are listed and those that are have a seriously limited back library.

Eg.

Raymond Feist - not listed
Trudi canavan - not listed
Stephen Baxter - not listed
Robin Hobb - not listed

Ben Bova - only 2 titles

I appreciate what they are doing by offering DRM free e-books and it's great that someone is out there trying to push the envelope so don't take my post as flaming the site. I'm not. I just feel it could use some attention.

Baen is a publisher, so they can only list authors whose works they publish. They're not a general SciFi/Fantasy book sales site. Robin Hobb, for example, has some books published by Spectra and her latest ones by Eos. If they had ebook sites, you could probably get those books there. But complaining about not finding them on Baen is like complaining that you can't find them on Stephen King's website :-)

[ultim8fury]

I appreciate that but ben bova who is listed there has only 2 titles available.

Content is an aside to the main issue and that's the design of the site. I just don't feel it shows a level of professionalism that I would expect from a commercial site.

[Riocaz]

Because those are the 2 he published through Baen?

[NatCh]

I'd just like Baen to remove the "entertainment" tag from their websites so that I can get to them through the draconian filter my employer fired up last Friday -- how Dilbertesque is it that I can 't get to Dilbert because comics are all tagged as entertainment and they've blocked all entertainment sites?

[rmeister0]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

IHMO, they are committing fraud by calling the transaction a "purchase" and by not being clear on what the true nature of the transaction is.

I will certainly agree that this is the case, and probably contributes more to the confusion over this discussion than anything else. Unfortunately the software model of licensed, not sold, has carried over into other venues.

I have absolutely no trouble with licensing for something I don't intend to keep forever and for which the price is reasonable. Yet there are also some things I want to keep and use indefinitely and for these things I still rely on paper books, CDs and DVDs. Divx was a piss-poor implementation of an even worse business model, and I fear that in the future all intellectual property will be distributed in some similar manner.