Months of Runaround From KDP Support: Font Embedding Fails...HELP!

[Hitch]

All:

I have some comments, if I may.

Doits, Harry: the PDS has been providing "standard" (by which I mean what you are all calling "hybrid" mobis, which to me are standard mobis) KF8 files from viable source material for some months now.

All:

With regard to Amazon and fonts, firstly, using .otf is asking for trouble. Quiris, you should have an almost identical experience testing the file at KDP; I expect/suspect that your fonts will "disappear" from the preview file, which you'll download and unpack.

This phenomena, of fonts literally disappearing from files, has been ongoing for nearly a year now. We have found it to happen with some foundry fonts, (Adobe particuarly, FWIW) and in a high percentage of .otf font files. We've stopped accepting/using any otf's at my shop, for this reason--more brain-damage than it's worth. (Or, if there's no way around it, we'll try a font-forge conversion, but even then, with some fonts, it will still strip. We are not sure of the genesis. I have indeed alerted Amazon, at the upper-echelons, of the occurrence thereof. Thus far, they've pretty much ignored the issue.)

@Doits:

As the PDS is now more equivalent to KDP's upload process (not 100%, but ~95%), I fully expect that his issue will remain an issue, that the fonts will be stripped at KDP. I can't be certain that this will happen, but it's my best "gut hunch" based on our experiences with the same issue.

FWIW, gents, that's my experience on this.

Hitch

[quiris]

Originally Posted by Hitc1

This phenomena, of fonts literally disappearing from files, has been ongoing for nearly a year now.

Hitch, I don't consider the stripping font bug in a category of phenomena. It's a simple bug in Amazon Services (KDP and PDS) and should be fixed by Amazon as soon as possible.

BTW. I received today e-mail from Kindle Support Team:

Personal documents are now in Amazon Cloud Drive: Starting today, all personal documents that you have archived in your Kindle Library will be available to access, delete, organize, and share from your Amazon Cloud Drive. You can see these documents in a new "My Send-to-Kindle Docs" folder alongside all of your saved content such as photos and personal videos.

There is no action required on your part. Your personal documents features will continue to work just as they have in the past. And as always, you can use Manage Your Kindle to see a list of your documents, re-deliver them to Kindle devices and free reading apps, delete them, or turn off auto-saving of documents to the cloud. Documents will be delivered just as they have in the past and you will continue to have 5 GB of free cloud storage for your personal documents. Just "Send Once, Read Everywhere."

Documents stored in their native format: Also starting today, new documents that you save to the cloud with Send to Kindle will be stored in their native format (e.g. MS Word, TXT) so you can access them anywhere from Amazon Cloud Drive.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by quiris

Hitch, I don't consider the stripping font bug in a category of phenomena. It's a simple bug in Amazon Services (KDP and PDS) and should be fixed by Amazon as soon as possible.

Good luck with that. As I believe I said, I've been discussing this issue with the Tech Support Management guys in Seattle since about...November, 2012, IIRC. I don't think they know what causes it, based upon my conversations with them.

BTW. I received today e-mail from Kindle Support Team:

Well, I've never used the PDS as an auto-converter, so I don't know how that will change things, but it sounds as though the old auto-convert via the PDS will no longer function, eh?

That'll put a crick in the "formatters" out there that use the PDS as their conversion method, if so. OTOH, I'd love to be able to drag and drop files to my cloud drive and have it available on the device OR on KCloud Reader on the i-Things. (Or, I would be, if the damn Amazon Cloud Drive didn't insist on installing on C: Drive, with no apparent way of moving it elsewhere, which annoys the holy crap out of me--we removed it.)

Hitch

[quiris]

Status update.

KDP service works in the same manner as PD Service. So I wrote to KDP Team about the issue and I got answer:

Did you use fixed layout format to format the content file?
Embedded fonts will convert well to Kindle content only when the original content file is formatted as fixed layout format file.

I was shocked by this restriction. Kindle Publishing Guidelines does not enforce such requirements:

3.11 Embedded Font Guidelines Kindle Format 8 supports embedded fonts within the eBook. These fonts can be either Open Type (OTF) or True Type (TTF). Kindle does not recommend the use of Type 1 (Postscript) fonts. To provide Kindle customers with the best possible reading experience, reflowable books that use Type 1 fonts are rendered using Kindle fonts by default. On KF8-enabled devices and apps, customers have the option to turn publisher-provided fonts on or off.

The font files within the book are intentionally obfuscated to reduce the probability of reuse, but it is the responsibility of the publisher to secure the appropriate license rights for fonts. Unless embedded fonts are necessary to convey intent, Amazon recommends using the default set of fonts installed on Kindle devices and apps because they have been tuned for high quality rendering.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by quiris

Status update.

KDP service works in the same manner as PD Service. So I wrote to KDP Team about the issue and I got answer:

Yes. As I said: it's been unreliable since at least late 2012, and we've been in communication with them on that ever since.

I was shocked by this restriction. Kindle Publishing Guidelines does not enforce such requirements:

What the Publishing Guidelines say, and what actually works, like almost everything else in the world of the Net and Tech, aren't the same thing. We've found that it's best to stick to a set of fonts that we know work. We stack up a list of about 50, update them every so often, and that's what we'll work with. Other firms have a fixed-list of fonts, too, and yet others charge the earth to use user-provided fonts (always asking for trouble, IMHO, due to the issues discussed herein, plus issues that users don't think about, like the font baseline-size).

Hitch

[JSWolf]

The problem I have with the Kindle in terms of embedded fonts is that the Kindle defaults to embedded fonts off. So if the reader doesn't check, the embedded fonts won't ever be displayed. I think embedded fonts should be turned on by default and then if the reader doesn't want to see them, then can they be turned off.

[quiris]

Originally Posted by quiris

KDP service works in the same manner as PD Service. So I wrote to KDP Team about the issue and I got answer

A new status update. After a couple of months waiting for answer I got another curious answer:

I worked with our technical team and got to know the below:

The only difference between test20.epup and test21.epub is
in test20.epub's font file:
p*{ font-family: "Lobster 1.4"; }

in test21.epub's font file:

p*, h1* { font-family: "Lobster 1.4"; }

The content present in the only html is

<!-- h1>test</h1-->

<!--p>test</p-->

In test20.epub the font-family lobster is getting applied only to P tag and the other tag h1 gets the default family.

Here font-family "lobster" is calculated as the major font family and is placed in the body tag.

Now the default font-family getting applied in the h1 tag is getting overridden by "lobster" and hence this is a conflicting behavior and hence font-fix tool is doing a strip fix .

In test21.epub since the font-family is getting applied to both p tag and h1 tag the font-family is maintained. Here the majority font-family is lobster and is not conflicting

The fix for this is to use the same font file as test21.epub or give a separate font-family for h1 tag.

In case if you have more questions, do not hesitate to contact us back, we are here to help and we will gladly assist you.

Thanks for using Amazon KDP.

[Tony_A20]

Hello Hitch,

I’ve been building e-books by hand, from scratch, for about five years. I write a book, format it in HTML, use an external CSS file to style it, and build all the construction files to put it together as a kindle mobi using kindlegen from the cmd line by submitting an OPF file, and building a separate epub version with separate pages and a modified OPF. I’ve run into lots of problems but managed to find solutions to all of them.

I’ve never been satisified with Amazon Kindle formatting and started a project back in April to see just exactly what I could do with the HTML and CSS, Amazon says in it’s guidelines it supports. It’s been an interesting learning experience because I’ve been pushing the envelope as much as I could.

I now would like to try embedding fonts, and my internet info search led me to this thread at a point back in July 2013 (#1 Mathew Reuther 07-17-2013, 08:18 PM). I read this thread with great interest. It was better than many mystery novels. But it left me feeling that if I stepped into the world of embedded forts, I was walking blindfolded and backwards, off a cliff.

What I would like to find, is a complete example of embedding and using a font showing how and where it’s mentioned in an HTML document, how it’s declared and what selectors are need to manipulate it in CSS, and how it’s shown in the OPF.

Do you have any suggestions where I should look, or can you give me some real example code?

Thanks,
Tony

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tony_A20

Hello Hitch,

I’ve been building e-books by hand, from scratch, for about five years. I write a book, format it in HTML, use an external CSS file to style it, and build all the construction files to put it together as a kindle mobi using kindlegen from the cmd line by submitting an OPF file, and building a separate epub version with separate pages and a modified OPF. I’ve run into lots of problems but managed to find solutions to all of them.

I’ve never been satisified with Amazon Kindle formatting and started a project back in April to see just exactly what I could do with the HTML and CSS, Amazon says in it’s guidelines it supports. It’s been an interesting learning experience because I’ve been pushing the envelope as much as I could.

I now would like to try embedding fonts, and my internet info search led me to this thread at a point back in July 2013 (#1 Mathew Reuther 07-17-2013, 08:18 PM). I read this thread with great interest. It was better than many mystery novels. But it left me feeling that if I stepped into the world of embedded forts, I was walking blindfolded and backwards, off a cliff.

What I would like to find, is a complete example of embedding and using a font showing how and where it’s mentioned in an HTML document, how it’s declared and what selectors are need to manipulate it in CSS, and how it’s shown in the OPF.

Do you have any suggestions where I should look, or can you give me some real example code?

Thanks,
Tony

Hi, Tony:

Well, let's start out less horrifyingly: what have you tried thus far? I usually tell folks to start with some of the already-available from the firmware fonts, and work your way outwards from there. I can tell you that you MUST, absolutely, test every single book, if you embed/call fonts, because fonts CAN and DO get stripped, routinely, at the KDP. (We still have a book, that we "resolved" but did not SOLVE, that had a mystery conflict between Arial [both embedded and/or called or both] and some of the Lucida fonts).

I can recommend that you start out with relatively "simple" fonts. The embedding isn't magic; if you can make an ePUB with embedded fonts, it *should* work at the KDP. There's some urban myth stuff about identifying the fonts at the top of the stylesheet, and on occasion, that seems to make a difference, myth or not.

So: what devices do you have to test with, and where are you at, in terms of tests and attempts?

Hitch

[Tony_A20]

Hello Hitch, thanks for your reply.

I'm at the research stage. I haven't tried to embed a font. I've read this thread carefully and know that getting the code correct in the HTML doc, CSS, and OPF is essential. I also realize the apparently good possibility that an embedded font will be stripped.

I want to improve the odds of success by starting as close as possible to a working example because I don't yet have a firm grasp of the embedding process. What is simple and easy to you, is unknown territory to me.

I know about fontsquirrel, I have Calibre with the unpack plugin—just recently installed—and for e-book testing I have been using the Kindle Previewer, Kindle for PC, and my Kindle 3. For epubs I have FBReader and Adobe Digital Editions. I'm familiar with all aspects of building and testing e-books. I have forty years experience in IT, from programmer, to Major Crown Project Manager. The most important thing I know, is that I don't know everything.

At this stage, I would like a concise overview of the code used to embed a font, beginning with a newly downloaded font. How is the font prepared, where is it located, how is it declared in a document HTML, CSS and OPF. How is an embedded font substituted and removed from use in HTML/CSS.
What is necessary to include in an OPF used to generate a .mobi book using kindlegen.exe. What is necessary to include in the OPF/INF-META/OEPBS used to produce an epub version. What is essential to include/exclude in any file, anywhere. In other words, a design plan.

I don't expect you Hitch, or anyone else on this forum, to do the work to explain all the above, but I would like a pointer to where I can find the information I would like to know. I have found a small introduction in "The Missing Manual - HTML5," and I have "The Missing Manual - CSS3," (which I have not yet read), which contains some information. I would be quite satisified at this point to go away and buy whatever is suggested (books, software) to learn/use embedded fonts. But, it would also be very helpful to have some real-life examples of the files/folders mentioned above, if anyone would care to post them here, or e-mail them to me via my website, www.katiebooks.ca by using the fanmail@katiebooks.ca address.

When I feel I understand what is required, I will join you and others in the struggle to successfully produce e-books with embedded fonts, and document the many, problems with kindlegen and the other software used by Amazon. At the moment, I'm trying desperately to get up to speed.

Any help anyone can provide will be gratefully accepted.

Tony

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tony_A20

Hello Hitch, thanks for your reply.

I'm at the research stage. I haven't tried to embed a font. I've read this thread carefully and know that getting the code correct in the HTML doc, CSS, and OPF is essential. I also realize the apparently good possibility that an embedded font will be stripped.

I want to improve the odds of success by starting as close as possible to a working example because I don't yet have a firm grasp of the embedding process. What is simple and easy to you, is unknown territory to me.

I know about fontsquirrel, I have Calibre with the unpack plugin—just recently installed—and for e-book testing I have been using the Kindle Previewer, Kindle for PC, and my Kindle 3. For epubs I have FBReader and Adobe Digital Editions. I'm familiar with all aspects of building and testing e-books. I have forty years experience in IT, from programmer, to Major Crown Project Manager. The most important thing I know, is that I don't know everything.

At this stage, I would like a concise overview of the code used to embed a font, beginning with a newly downloaded font. How is the font prepared, where is it located, how is it declared in a document HTML, CSS and OPF. How is an embedded font substituted and removed from use in HTML/CSS.
What is necessary to include in an OPF used to generate a .mobi book using kindlegen.exe. What is necessary to include in the OPF/INF-META/OEPBS used to produce an epub version. What is essential to include/exclude in any file, anywhere. In other words, a design plan.

I don't expect you Hitch, or anyone else on this forum, to do the work to explain all the above, but I would like a pointer to where I can find the information I would like to know. I have found a small introduction in "The Missing Manual - HTML5," and I have "The Missing Manual - CSS3," (which I have not yet read), which contains some information. I would be quite satisified at this point to go away and buy whatever is suggested (books, software) to learn/use embedded fonts. But, it would also be very helpful to have some real-life examples of the files/folders mentioned above, if anyone would care to post them here, or e-mail them to me via my website, www.katiebooks.ca by using the fanmail@katiebooks.ca address.

When I feel I understand what is required, I will join you and others in the struggle to successfully produce e-books with embedded fonts, and document the many, problems with kindlegen and the other software used by Amazon. At the moment, I'm trying desperately to get up to speed.

Any help anyone can provide will be gratefully accepted.

Tony

Tony:

Really, and I'm not trying to be self-deprecating here, it's just not as rocket-surgery-ish as it sounds in this thread. Yes, mystery things DO happen. But, fundamentally, it works fairly simply and just like ePUB.

Here's the SS for two fonts (a serif and a sans serif that we've paired and we like together):

@font-face { font-family: "PTF5"; font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; src:url(fonts/PTF5bd.ttf); }
@font-face { font-family: "PTF5"; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; src:url(fonts/PTF5.ttf); }
@font-face { font-family: "PTF5"; font-style: italic; font-weight: normal; src:url(fonts/PTF5i.ttf); }
@font-face { font-family: "PTF5"; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold; src:url(fonts/PTF5bi.ttf); }

@font-face { font-family: "PTS7"; font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; src:url(fonts/PTS7bd.ttf); }
@font-face { font-family: "PTS7"; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; src:url(fonts/PTS7.ttf); }
@font-face { font-family: "PTS7"; font-style: italic; font-weight: normal; src:url(fonts/PTS7i.ttf); }
@font-face { font-family: "PTS7"; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold; src:url(fonts/PTS7bi.ttf); }

NOTE that from the ePUB edition, if you are a Sigil user, that the "f" in "fonts" is now lower-case, although not REQUIRED. Here's the Stylesheet detailing of one (same for all other uses):

.chap
 {
 font-weight:normal;
 margin-top:2em;
 margin-bottom:0em;
 text-align:center;
 font-size:1.2em;
 adobe-hyphenate:none;
 -webkit-hyphens: none;
 hyphens:none;
 font-family: "PTS7";
}

And here it is deployed:

<p class="chap"><span class="u"><b>YOUR TEXT HERE</b></span></p>

(And, yes, those are underlining spans, not the old u.)

That's it. There's honestly no magic to it. WHEN things go wrong, check your CSS first, then your HTML, and then bracket-navigate your way around the issue. It's all you can do. Start with a paragraph, build it, see if the font works. Go to a section, then a chapter. The slightly faster way is to do it by halves--halve the book, see if both halves fail. Rinse, repeat. Nine times out of ten, it will be some fatal flaw with the font, not something you can fix. Adobe fonts fail often, for reasons that are not clear to me, other than: it happens.

If it's not clear from this thread, the issue will arise, mostly AFTER the book is uploaded at the KDP; in the online preview, the fonts will be GONE. That's not a previewer glitch; it's the reality. That's when you start the troubleshooting.

As far as I know, there is no primer on how to use fonts at Amazon. Those of us in the trade either tend to do it, or don't. Those of us who learnt how did it by trial-and-error. (There are no end to the myriad threads at the KDP forums bemoaning the "evils" of embedded fonts--from bookmakers who don't/won't/can't do it). I like fonts, myself. We have a clientele of print-book-layout providers who use us (in secret, natch) for the ebook portion of their work, and their clientele, particularly, demand fonts. Were it my own book, I'd like just do chapter head fonts, and let the rest fall as it may, but...{shrug}, old-style bookmakers like traditional-looking ebooks.

Hope that helps. Nuthin' fancy.

Hitch

[HarryT]

I'm strongly opposed to the use of embedded fonts for body text, personally, unless there's a damned good reason for it (such as your book being in a weird language that standard fonts don't have glyphs for). Embedding a font for body text means, on many devices, that the user is unable to use their own choice of font to read the book, and for many people that's an important consideration.

Nothing against the use of embedded fonts for chapter headings, etc, of course.

But, at the end of the day, if that's what the customer wants...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm strongly opposed to the use of embedded fonts for body text, personally, unless there's a damned good reason for it (such as your book being in a weird language that standard fonts don't have glyphs for). Embedding a font for body text means, on many devices, that the user is unable to use their own choice of font to read the book, and for many people that's an important consideration.

Nothing against the use of embedded fonts for chapter headings, etc, of course.

But, at the end of the day, if that's what the customer wants...

Harry:

I tell clients that the most "bang for the buck" is to use an embedded font for say, a title page, and chapter heads. Leave the body text as-is. I think that's a decent trade-off between design sensibilities and end-user desires. (Although: again, as I've said before, who would be full of righteous indignation if a print book used Georgia, say, instead of Garamond, or vice-versa? NO ONE. it's only this "Word file" mindset that makes everyone think that they should be able to customize a book's reading experience to their own individual tastes.)

And in my racket--yes, what the customer wants rules, particularly with the work we get from print-layout houses. Those, will ALWAYS have fonts. For the obvious reason. We try to make them as unobtrusive as possible, but still.

And of course, there are many books that do require fonts for their artistic vision. That one is hard to argue with.

Hitch

[Tony_A20]

Hello Hitch,

Thanks very, very much!

The code will get me over several humps I’m sure. Can you provide one more example of how a font is declared in an OPF Manifest? I've grabbed Mathew Reuther's OPF but I would like to see how you would do it.

@Harry,

The use I have in mind is to show in an e-book, a short sequence of correspondence between two people. It will add greatly to the effect of the letters if they are shown in different script fonts to simulate the handwriting of the persons involved. I think it’s a legitimate use of embedded fonts.

I really appreciate your help Hitch, thanks again.

Tony

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Tony_A20

The use I have in mind is to show in an e-book, a short sequence of correspondence between two people. It will add greatly to the effect of the letters if they are shown in different script fonts to simulate the handwriting of the persons involved. I think it’s a legitimate use of embedded fonts.

Agreed - that's an entirely legitimate use.