Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > Writers' Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-05-2017, 10:36 AM   #31
Dr. Drib
Grand Sorcerer
Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Dr. Drib ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Dr. Drib's Avatar
 
Posts: 44,711
Karma: 55613375
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Peru
Device: Kindle: Oasis 3, Voyage WiFi; Kobo: Libra 2, Aura One
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
I'm sorry, Dr. Drib, but your work needs modernising:

"" exclaimed and then further , "Did you say '' or '' ?"

and at and then both * out . " " they


Now there's some expressive prose.

* sorry, couldn't find a bursting balloon


A vast improvement over the original!
Dr. Drib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 10:42 AM   #32
ApK
Award-Winning Participant
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,310
Karma: 67564074
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Funny this should come up. This week, my 14-year-old son commented on a passage in an LM Montgomery book where the author used an ellipsis in narration. He said he had just been taught in is middle-school Honors Language Arts class that ellipses should only be used in dialog.
I disagreed (as, obviously, did LMM).

I can see, however, that there might be stylistic prohibitions against that kind of punctuation use. It seems like it would be a good rule to follow in journalism, for example. I wonder what the various style guides say on the matter.

ApK
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 06-05-2017, 10:50 AM   #33
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApK View Post
Funny this should come up. This week, my 14-year-old son commented on a passage in an LM Montgomery book where the author used an ellipsis in narration. He said he had just been taught in is middle-school Honors Language Arts class that ellipses should only be used in dialog.
I disagreed (as, obviously, did LMM).

I can see, however, that there might be stylistic prohibitions against that kind of punctuation use. It seems like it would be a good rule to follow in journalism, for example. I wonder what the various style guides say on the matter.

ApK
As I remarked in an earlier post, it's fine to break the "rules", provided that you know enough about them in the first place to know when it's appropriate to break them. Eg, we're taught as writers, "don't use sentence fragments", but Dickens put them to masterful use in the famous opening paragraph of "Bleak House":

Quote:
London. Michaelmas term lately over, and the Lord Chancellor sitting in Lincoln's Inn Hall. Implacable November weather. As much mud in the streets, as if the waters had but newly retired from the face of the earth, and it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill. Smoke lowering down from chimney-pots, making a soft black drizzle, with flakes of soot in it as big as full-grown snow-flakes—gone into mourning, one might imagine, for the death of the sun. Dogs, undistinguishable in mire. Horses, scarcely better; splashed to their very blinkers. Foot passengers, jostling one another's umbrellas, in a general infection of ill-temper, and losing their foot-hold at street-corners, where tens of thousands of other foot passengers have been slipping and sliding since the day broke (if this day ever broke), adding new deposits to the crust upon crust of mud, sticking at those points tenaciously to the pavement, and accumulating at compound interest.
Here, he's using sentence fragments to achieve a particular (and quite wonderful) effect, but lesser writers would still be well-advised to avoid them!
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 10:57 AM   #34
Cinisajoy
Just a Yellow Smiley.
Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Cinisajoy's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,161
Karma: 83862859
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Texas
Device: K4, K5, fire, kobo, galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
As I remarked in an earlier post, it's fine to break the "rules", provided that you know enough about them in the first place to know when it's appropriate to break them. Eg, we're taught as writers, "don't use sentence fragments", but Dickens put them to masterful use in the famous opening paragraph of "Bleak House":



Here, he's using sentence fragments to achieve a particular (and quite wonderful) effect, but lesser writers would still be well-advised to avoid them!
Common phrase uttered by "authors", "So and so did it, why can't I".

Usual answer because you aren't so and so and that is not how he did it.
Cinisajoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 11:45 AM   #35
ApK
Award-Winning Participant
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,310
Karma: 67564074
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Common phrase uttered by "authors", "So and so did it, why can't I".

Usual answer because you aren't so and so and that is not how he did it.
Hmm. At some point, perhaps you are ready to emulate so-and-so and stand on that particular giant's shoulder.

I think the trick is KNOWING you're able to do it, and knowing WHY you should, not JUST doing to copy someone.

I don't know if so-and-so themself was inspired to emulate someone he read and admired, or if it was a totally original thing, but either way, if it worked, it worked, and they didn't need permission.

I wouldn't surprised if some editor at first told Dickens "Sorry, kid, I know Chaucer did it, but you ain't no Chaucer," but Dickens was confident enough in his talent to ignore him.

(I've never read Chaucer and have no idea if Dickens did anything he did, it was just the first pre-Dickensian literary giant name to pop into my head. Shakespeare! I should have said Shakespeare!)
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 06-05-2017, 12:33 PM   #36
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
I'm not saying this discussion about emulating "so and so" is wrong, but it's not quite that clean cut in reality.

Some excellent advice that is given to writers is to read a lot and to read widely, and also that they must be familiar with genre they plan to write in. Such advice is not there specifically to tell writers to emulate successful authors, but it is intended that writers should learn what works and what doesn't, particularly in their genre. One consequence is that some things will rub off, intentionally or not, and a writer will be influenced by those they have read. It's not really something you can avoid, though you can alleviate the problem by placing emphasis on "read widely".

Of course a writer is supposed to know the rules, but the rules for fiction are not quite the same as the formal rules you find elsewhere. They're close, but stick to strictly formal prose and your work will be lost before you start. You learn that you can get away with more stuff in dialogue than you can in direct narrative. But then you also discover that certain situations require a more direct character point of view in the narrative. And so the rules start to get hazy.

There is only one solution: write. Write lots and eventually you will start to learn what works for you and what doesn't.

Recently, in another thread, I mentioned my failed attempt to emulate Neil Gaiman's fairytale voice from Stardust. I almost got it for a couple of thousand words, but I couldn't keep it up. As ApK mentioned, recognising failure is the trick. In this case it was obvious, but other situations it becomes try it and see what the readers think.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 01:20 PM   #37
Lemurion
eReader
Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lemurion ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Lemurion's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,750
Karma: 4968470
Join Date: Aug 2007
Device: Note 5; PW3; Nook HD+; ChuWi Hi12; iPad
There's an old saying that you can do anything you want in writing so long as you do it well enough.

The rule I try to follow is not to flout convention unless I know why the convention exists, and what effect it will have to flout it.
Lemurion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 01:26 PM   #38
ApK
Award-Winning Participant
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,310
Karma: 67564074
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
There's an old saying that you can do anything you want in writing so long as you do it well enough.

The rule I try to follow is not to flout convention unless I know why the convention exists, and what effect it will have to flout it.
Music is the same way, I believe.
Two quotes speak to the point:

"There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind."
--Duke Ellington

"If a note isn't right when I start playing it, it'll be right when I'm done."
--Miles Davis, I think, or words to that effect.
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 01:49 PM   #39
arjaybe
Guru
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 996
Karma: 12012526
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: Sony PRS-650
I use sentence fragments for pacing or when the narrative reflects a character's fragmented thinking.
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 04:46 PM   #40
Cinisajoy
Just a Yellow Smiley.
Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Cinisajoy's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,161
Karma: 83862859
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Texas
Device: K4, K5, fire, kobo, galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApK View Post
Hmm. At some point, perhaps you are ready to emulate so-and-so and stand on that particular giant's shoulder.

I think the trick is KNOWING you're able to do it, and knowing WHY you should, not JUST doing to copy someone.

I don't know if so-and-so themself was inspired to emulate someone he read and admired, or if it was a totally original thing, but either way, if it worked, it worked, and they didn't need permission.

I wouldn't surprised if some editor at first told Dickens "Sorry, kid, I know Chaucer did it, but you ain't no Chaucer," but Dickens was confident enough in his talent to ignore him.

(I've never read Chaucer and have no idea if Dickens did anything he did, it was just the first pre-Dickensian literary giant name to pop into my head. Shakespeare! I should have said Shakespeare!)
I was actually referring to em dashes and double spaces for dialog as an example. One author thought that was what "Cormac McCarthy" did so he did it too.
I once looked through a CM book and no he didn't.

Another example was Hugh Howey writes serials so I am just copying him.
1. Two different genres. 2. HH did have some resolution. He didn't just throw in more problems.
No, the person in the above example had not actually read any part of Wool.

Oh and I think everyone has copied Shakespeare in one form or other.
Cinisajoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 12:49 AM   #41
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
There's an old saying that you can do anything you want in writing so long as you do it well enough.

The rule I try to follow is not to flout convention unless I know why the convention exists, and what effect it will have to flout it.
Very much this.

The problem with saying that you have to know the rules before you break them is that it implies that you consciously break rules to some specific effect, but this gets things in the wrong order. You write it first because it sounds right, only later do you notice that you've broken convention and then try to decide whether you can (or should try to) get away with it. Your choices in this regard get better with experience. (Well, my phrasing is the generic "you" when what I really mean is "me" - perhaps it doesn't work this way for everyone.)
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 11:47 PM   #42
Steven Lake
Sci-Fi Author
Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lake's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,157
Karma: 14743509
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Device: PC (Calibre)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Steven,
I have to say this, but published author means absolutely nothing to me. I know several "published authors" that couldn't put a decent sentence together. So is she a professional author?
Yes she is and she's doing pretty good too.

As for using !! and !? I use them sparingly, but I do occasionally find places where they're useful outside of dialog. Then again, I don't use them that often even in dialog except where I think a little bit of extra punch is needed. Beyond that I like to avoid using them as much as possible. But, I don't completely forbid myself from using them. ^_^
Steven Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 11:57 PM   #43
Cinisajoy
Just a Yellow Smiley.
Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Cinisajoy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Cinisajoy's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,161
Karma: 83862859
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Texas
Device: K4, K5, fire, kobo, galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Lake View Post
Yes she is and she's doing pretty good too.

As for using !! and !? I use them sparingly, but I do occasionally find places where they're useful outside of dialog. Then again, I don't use them that often even in dialog except where I think a little bit of extra punch is needed. Beyond that I like to avoid using them as much as possible. But, I don't completely forbid myself from using them. ^_^
I tend to use !!! and ??? in here at times.

Now use them as you feel necessary, just make sure to use ' appropriately.
Cinisajoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2017, 12:06 PM   #44
Steven Lake
Sci-Fi Author
Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lake ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lake's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,157
Karma: 14743509
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Device: PC (Calibre)
Oh, I fully agree. Balance is the key.
Steven Lake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2017, 04:40 AM   #45
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,809
Karma: 137770742
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Lake View Post
Oh, I fully agree. Balance is the key.
... to everything. Too much ice-cream will help make you fat, but a good amount is a wonderful experience. Too much water will drown you, but too little and you die. This is why I distrust extremists.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Converting UK punctuation to US adv_dp_fan Workshop 21 04-20-2015 04:48 AM
Punctuation - who knows where? gmw Writers' Corner 13 08-03-2013 01:16 AM
Punctuation Dresden Calibre 7 08-31-2010 05:14 AM
Punctuation jgray Workshop 10 04-14-2010 07:38 AM
Vanishing punctuation Robotech_Master Calibre 25 06-01-2009 10:24 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:49 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.