MobileRead July 2015 Discussion: Waterloo (spoilers)

WT Sharpe · 07-20-2015, 01:43 AM

The time has come to discuss the July 2015 MobileRead Book Club selection, Waterloo: The History of Four Days, Three Armies and Three Battles by Bernard Cornwell. What did you think?

issybird · 07-20-2015, 09:23 AM

I'm getting there. I took some time out to polish off Go Set a Watchman first.

Generally speaking, I think the narration is highly entertaining, but as I suspected, my eyes glaze over a bit when it comes to the spatial dimensions of fighting a battle. My spatial sense stinks.

CRussel · 07-20-2015, 03:01 PM

I'm enjoying this book, but it's not compelling me. I'm listening to the Audible version, which is well read, and I sometimes wish I had a map in front of me. OTOH, I don't actually _care_ about the details of who was on which road. What is more interesting, and well covered, is the logistical and tactical considerations that led to Wellington's victory. And the ways in which it could all have gone horribly wrong. (For example, why did Marshall Ney delay his attack on Quatre Bras.)

GA Russell · 07-21-2015, 06:18 PM

May I suggest that this thread be placed on the home page?

issybird · 07-21-2015, 09:03 PM

Can I say how much I dislike the shifts in tense, sometimes from sentence to sentence? It's jarring, taking me right out of the narrative.

CRussel · 07-22-2015, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by issybird

Can I say how much I dislike the shifts in tense, sometimes from sentence to sentence? It's jarring, taking me right out of the narrative.

Certainly you can. And just have.

I admit, it has annoyed me a couple of times, though not as much as you.

issybird · 07-27-2015, 10:04 AM

Anyone? Bueller?

This was a mixed bag for me. Starting with the good, as an idiot's (ie, moi) guide to the Battle of Waterloo, it was very good. Before reading it, all I knew about Waterloo, other than Wellington's winning it and Napoleon's being packed off to St. Helena, was dancing at the Duchess of Richmond's ball the night before and "The battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton." This was compact and for the most part, engagingly told. I now have a clear sense of the various battles, stands, and personalities, which is to the good.

Frankly, I expected something by a writer of Cornwell's stature to be better written. I've already mentioned the frequent shifts in tense, which drove me nuts. In addition, he repeated anecdotes and analyses (I remember it from the first time, thankyouverymuch) and had another writing tic of ending up a section with a one sentence (and sometimes a sentence fragment) paragraph. That staled quickly. His diction could have been improved. I do not think prevarication means what he thinks it means. I suspect Cornwell is one of those writers who is too big to be edited, alas.

As I've said, I've no basis on which to criticize his historiography. My gut reaction says that Napoleon and Ney couldn't have been quite so incompetent as Cornwell portrays them, nor Wellington so god-like; it was a near thing, after all. It's a matter of the defects of its virtues, I suppose. I like footnotes, but this was clearly mostly compiled from secondary sources and his own vast store of knowledge about the period. Geared to the general reader, so lacking any real historical rigor. I thought the best parts, as in the most evocative, were the quotations from first-person accounts and the pictures; the book was worth reading for those alone.

I had meant to read a biography of Napoleon this year, for the bicentenary of Waterloo, but that will probably be postponed until next year. Again, as I've said, I'm more a causes and effects person than a battle person, and I'm looking forward to reading about the Congress of Vienna and the new shape of Europe. This will do Waterloo for me.

One last reaction is that Cornwell is superb at protraying the carnage of war. As I get older, I find it harder and harder to understand why disagreements have to end in limbs flying and lives lost and ruined. Wouldn't tiddlywinks be a better choice? (I stole that from a Mad Magazine parody of Wellington and Napoleon remembered from my youth.)

HomeInMyShoes · 07-27-2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by issybird

Anyone? Bueller?
...
As I've said, I've no basis on which to criticize his historiography. My gut reaction says that Napoleon and Ney couldn't have been quite so incompetent as Cornwell portrays them, nor Wellington so god-like; it was a near thing, after all. It's a matter of the defects of its virtues, I suppose. I like footnotes, but this was clearly mostly compiled from secondary sources and his own vast store of knowledge about the period. Geared to the general reader, so lacking any real historical rigor. I thought the best parts, as in the most evocative, were the quotations from first-person accounts and the pictures; the book was worth reading for those alone.
...

I'm getting there, but it's a slow read for me. About a third of the way in now. I'm not much for the tense-shifting. I get why he thinks it might be useful, but it's not working so much for my brain.

I am enjoying the first-person accounts, but I am not a history reader in the slightest. This book is proving that to me.

CRussel · 07-27-2015, 01:08 PM

I'm still enjoying it. The tense shifts should have been dealt with by the editor. That's one of the (many, many, many) things that editors are particularly good at. I know it's always a problem for my own writing, even when I know better. But very hard to keep track of when you're in the throws of trying to meet a deadline.

In reading some other works, Marshall Ney is treated about in the middle here. Some want to put all the blame on Napoleon, some all on Ney. Cornwell seems to fall somewhere in the middle, blaming both. What is fairly clear is that had Ney done what Napoleon thought he was doing, the battle might have been very different.

I'm still listening to this on Audible, so I won't likely finish before we get into next month's book, but my intent is definitely to finish it. I knew a certain amount about the battle, and the history of both Wellesley and Napoleon, but only from reading peripheral things

Oh, and I second the tiddlywinks suggestion.

HomeInMyShoes · 07-27-2015, 05:39 PM

I'm more of a fan of rock, paper, scissors which is alluded to in the book. We use that at work to solve life and death disagreements like who gets what muffin when selection is limited.

issybird · 07-28-2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRussel

In reading some other works, Marshall Ney is treated about in the middle here. Some want to put all the blame on Napoleon, some all on Ney. Cornwell seems to fall somewhere in the middle, blaming both. What is fairly clear is that had Ney done what Napoleon thought he was doing, the battle might have been very different.

I'm still listening to this on Audible, so I won't likely finish before we get into next month's book, but my intent is definitely to finish it. I knew a certain amount about the battle, and the history of both Wellesley and Napoleon, but only from reading peripheral things.

Thanks for the input on Ney. I do think Cornwell does an excellent job of showing to what extent fortune, given factors that couldn't be controlled, or controlled or adjusted for imperfectly, could tip a battle either way. I'm reminded of how Eisenhower had two different messages prepared to announce the D-Day invasion.

For you, or for anyone else who might be listening to this, it would be worthwhile seeing if you could borrow a hard copy from the library, just to see the gorgeous color plates of contemporary and near contemporary depictions of the battle. I read the ebook, but opened it on my laptop so I could see the illustrations in full color and detail.

HomeInMyShoes · 07-28-2015, 10:11 AM

^The hard copy is quite nice, although the plates make for a pretty hefty book in the han.

issybird · 07-28-2015, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

^The hard copy is quite nice, although the plates make for a pretty hefty book in the han.

Since the Kindle price and hardcover price are a wash at Amazon, in this case, assuming someone could handle reading print and straining wrists, I'd be tempted to go for the hard copy. I gather it's a gorgeous book, the illustrations are fantastic, and there's the residual value.

HomeInMyShoes · 07-29-2015, 09:56 AM

I really enjoyed the mention of Lady Butler's painting. Having been through many art history classes I really enjoyed that brief bit. I'll be wanting to go through all my art history books looking for battle pictures now.

HomeInMyShoes · 07-31-2015, 10:02 AM

I finished. Up late last night to do so. Not bad. I don't read history much so it's not something I have much to draw upon for comparison, but I enjoyed it. I could have done without the afterward section and the theories as to why one lost. It was in the pages for the reader to glean, although I did appreciate the information on the reliability of the information.

07-20-2015, 01:43 AM	#1
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,073 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	July 2015 Discussion: Waterloo (spoilers) The time has come to discuss the July 2015 MobileRead Book Club selection, Waterloo: The History of Four Days, Three Armies and Three Battles by Bernard Cornwell. What did you think?

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07-20-2015, 09:23 AM	#2
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 20,233 Karma: 222235366 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: H2O, Aura One, PW5	I'm getting there. I took some time out to polish off Go Set a Watchman first. Generally speaking, I think the narration is highly entertaining, but as I suspected, my eyes glaze over a bit when it comes to the spatial dimensions of fighting a battle. My spatial sense stinks.

07-20-2015, 03:01 PM	#3
CRussel (he/him/his) Posts: 12,161 Karma: 79742714 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Sunshine Coast, BC Device: Oasis (Gen3),Paperwhite (Gen10), Voyage, Paperwhite(orig), Fire HD 8	I'm enjoying this book, but it's not compelling me. I'm listening to the Audible version, which is well read, and I sometimes wish I had a map in front of me. OTOH, I don't actually _care_ about the details of who was on which road. What is more interesting, and well covered, is the logistical and tactical considerations that led to Wellington's victory. And the ways in which it could all have gone horribly wrong. (For example, why did Marshall Ney delay his attack on Quatre Bras.)

07-21-2015, 06:18 PM	#4
GA Russell Montreal wins Grey Cup! Posts: 7,583 Karma: 31484197 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC Device: Paperwhite, Kindles 10 & 4 and jetBook Lite	May I suggest that this thread be placed on the home page?

07-21-2015, 09:03 PM	#5
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 20,233 Karma: 222235366 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: H2O, Aura One, PW5	Can I say how much I dislike the shifts in tense, sometimes from sentence to sentence? It's jarring, taking me right out of the narrative.

07-27-2015, 10:04 AM	#7
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 20,233 Karma: 222235366 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: H2O, Aura One, PW5	Anyone? Bueller? This was a mixed bag for me. Starting with the good, as an idiot's (ie, moi) guide to the Battle of Waterloo, it was very good. Before reading it, all I knew about Waterloo, other than Wellington's winning it and Napoleon's being packed off to St. Helena, was dancing at the Duchess of Richmond's ball the night before and "The battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton." This was compact and for the most part, engagingly told. I now have a clear sense of the various battles, stands, and personalities, which is to the good. Frankly, I expected something by a writer of Cornwell's stature to be better written. I've already mentioned the frequent shifts in tense, which drove me nuts. In addition, he repeated anecdotes and analyses (I remember it from the first time, thankyouverymuch) and had another writing tic of ending up a section with a one sentence (and sometimes a sentence fragment) paragraph. That staled quickly. His diction could have been improved. I do not think prevarication means what he thinks it means. I suspect Cornwell is one of those writers who is too big to be edited, alas. As I've said, I've no basis on which to criticize his historiography. My gut reaction says that Napoleon and Ney couldn't have been quite so incompetent as Cornwell portrays them, nor Wellington so god-like; it was a near thing, after all. It's a matter of the defects of its virtues, I suppose. I like footnotes, but this was clearly mostly compiled from secondary sources and his own vast store of knowledge about the period. Geared to the general reader, so lacking any real historical rigor. I thought the best parts, as in the most evocative, were the quotations from first-person accounts and the pictures; the book was worth reading for those alone. I had meant to read a biography of Napoleon this year, for the bicentenary of Waterloo, but that will probably be postponed until next year. Again, as I've said, I'm more a causes and effects person than a battle person, and I'm looking forward to reading about the Congress of Vienna and the new shape of Europe. This will do Waterloo for me. One last reaction is that Cornwell is superb at protraying the carnage of war. As I get older, I find it harder and harder to understand why disagreements have to end in limbs flying and lives lost and ruined. Wouldn't tiddlywinks be a better choice? (I stole that from a Mad Magazine parody of Wellington and Napoleon remembered from my youth.)

07-27-2015, 01:08 PM	#9
CRussel (he/him/his) Posts: 12,161 Karma: 79742714 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Sunshine Coast, BC Device: Oasis (Gen3),Paperwhite (Gen10), Voyage, Paperwhite(orig), Fire HD 8	I'm still enjoying it. The tense shifts should have been dealt with by the editor. That's one of the (many, many, many) things that editors are particularly good at. I know it's always a problem for my own writing, even when I know better. But very hard to keep track of when you're in the throws of trying to meet a deadline. In reading some other works, Marshall Ney is treated about in the middle here. Some want to put all the blame on Napoleon, some all on Ney. Cornwell seems to fall somewhere in the middle, blaming both. What is fairly clear is that had Ney done what Napoleon thought he was doing, the battle might have been very different. I'm still listening to this on Audible, so I won't likely finish before we get into next month's book, but my intent is definitely to finish it. I knew a certain amount about the battle, and the history of both Wellesley and Napoleon, but only from reading peripheral things Oh, and I second the tiddlywinks suggestion.

07-27-2015, 05:39 PM	#10
HomeInMyShoes Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,226 Karma: 67780237 Join Date: Jul 2011 Device: none	I'm more of a fan of rock, paper, scissors which is alluded to in the book. We use that at work to solve life and death disagreements like who gets what muffin when selection is limited.

07-28-2015, 10:11 AM	#12
HomeInMyShoes Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,226 Karma: 67780237 Join Date: Jul 2011 Device: none	^The hard copy is quite nice, although the plates make for a pretty hefty book in the han.

07-29-2015, 09:56 AM	#14
HomeInMyShoes Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,226 Karma: 67780237 Join Date: Jul 2011 Device: none	I really enjoyed the mention of Lady Butler's painting. Having been through many art history classes I really enjoyed that brief bit. I'll be wanting to go through all my art history books looking for battle pictures now.

07-31-2015, 10:02 AM	#15
HomeInMyShoes Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,226 Karma: 67780237 Join Date: Jul 2011 Device: none	I finished. Up late last night to do so. Not bad. I don't read history much so it's not something I have much to draw upon for comparison, but I enjoyed it. I could have done without the afterward section and the theories as to why one lost. It was in the pages for the reader to glean, although I did appreciate the information on the reliability of the information.

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