Seriously thoughtful Unbelievable! (not allowed to show the flag)

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Nope, you don't, but this isn't the place for that conversation, and we all have the responsibility of making sure that conversations do stay relatively on topic and don't enter into topics that are most likely to get the thread locked.

You made a comment on the "founding fathers" value of freedom. I made a comment on the "founding fathers" value of freedom. Same topic.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Catire

I find the death threats and insults the owner of the apartment complex received much more offensive than him having a say on what can and cannot be publicly displayed in his property.

Just my 2 centimos.

I disagree with the policy the owners implemented, but you're right. The death threats and insults they received have no place in a civilized society.


.....If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.
..........— Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) 3rd President of the United States. First Inaugural Address.

[Poppa1956]

According to FoxNews at http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/28...-flag-display/ the landlords have recanted. That, I presume, until someone puts a Star of David, cross, menorah, hanukiah, or a Christmas tree.

[Spoon Man]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

You made a comment on the "founding fathers" value of freedom. I made a comment on the "founding fathers" value of freedom. Same topic.

Alright, that I respect, I just didn't want to drag all the discussion that can spawn from someone talking about slavery into this discussion.

In regards to that however, no person or people are, have been, or will ever be perfect. It was what went on at the time. I'm sure in later generations people will look back on some of the things we have done with similar attitudes as you do with slavery. I think it was a horrible practice as well and I in no way condone it, but regardless of that I would like to think that Americans still hold them in high regard for the services they have rendered to us. They weren't perfect, but neither are you or I.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

In regards to that however, no person or people are, have been, or will ever be perfect. It was what went on at the time. I'm sure in later generations people will look back on some of the things we have done with similar attitudes as you do with slavery.

And that's actually my main issue with this-- I'm not "anti-American." I'm not "anti-flag." But while I recognize that there are some very, very positive things about America and it's history, I also recognize that there are some very, very negative things about America and it's history. And the people who wave their flags the hardest seem to almost always be the people who are the least likely to critical examine-- well-- anything. The people who think that anything short of uncritical praise of everything about America "loathe" America, and "loathe" the flag-- the people that threaten the lives of someone who does not treat the flag like a fetish. I have no problem with the millions of Americans that quietly give honor to their flag-- but the ones that speak the loudest about it are usually the perfect fit for the stereotype of "Ugly Americans."

[Spoon Man]

Aye, well, that makes sense. I think I can honestly say that the majority of people that have posted in this thread (if not all of them) do not fall into that "Ugly American" category. Even Recluse, who is vehement at times, I believe completely understands and acknowledges the short comings in America's history.

As for the fetishism, well, I do believe that there is some emotional power in seeing the flag properly displayed and blowing fully in the wind, or being displayed during the National Anthem. It could be just me, but I hate to see the flag disrespect and when i do see it I say something about. I can't actually do anything as it is the constitutional right of the people involved to do whatever they will, however I find it insulting when a flag flies tattered or upside down. Not insulting to me necessarily, but to everyone who has given their lives for the people here. I don't condone threats, and I don't condone people imposing upon the rights of others.

[BuddyBoy]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

unfortunately yes, and you can burn it in protest as well and I have to stand by and defend the rights of those who do it (but you can't in Germany!)

Can I clarify something? I'd appreciate it if you could make the real effort to put yourself in the following hypothetical situation. Let's say you rented out a room to a student or such in your house, and they chose to drape a nazi flag in their window, or a tattered, ripped and burned american flag with, say, a large red circle and slash though it, you'd be fine with that being displayed on your property and defend their right to do so?

Or would you tell them to take it down or face eviction?

[SneakySnake]

I can understand being told to remove political etc stuff. But this is the national flag of the nation of the window in question is it not?

I don't understand how the f#$k you can be asked to take down your national flag. It is everyone's patriotic duty to fly the flag of their nation!

The world is turning upside down again. If you are going to offend someone with the national flag of any nation, we should look at the offendee and they should F$%K OFF! to somewhere where they will not be offended!

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by SneakySnake

It is everyone's patriotic duty to fly the flag of their nation!

No, you are thinking of North Korea, where everyone is required to have portraits of Psycho and Psycho Jr. in every room of their houses.

"Patriotic duty" to display national symbols is the propaganda of fascist states.

[SneakySnake]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

No, you are thinking of North Korea, where everyone is required to have portraits of Psycho and Psycho Jr. in every room of their houses.

"Patriotic duty" to display national symbols is the propaganda of fascist states.

Ok, maybe that comment was a little over the top. How about we change patriotic duty to patriotic freedom/right or something like that?

I wasn't suggesting that you must fly the flag, merely that you should be able to if you want to.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Want to know what bothers me? (Probably not, but I'm going to tell you anyway.) It's not the flag burning, the flag loathing, or Sean Hannity spouting idiocy. It's hyphens -- yup, hyphens as in Polish-American, African-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American, etc.

I was born and raised in the USA; I've never lived in the land from which relatives of years past emigrated to the USA. I have no desire to live anywhere but the USA. I am an American -- no hyphens needed to say that or describe me -- for all its good and all its bad. If I don't like something, I protest in accordance with the liberties afforded me as an American and I take my protest to the ballot box; I don't pick up an assault rifle and start shooting up the neighborhood.

It really bugs me when someone who is a third-generation American calls them self xyz-American and flies the xyz flag. If it is so bad to be an American and if xyz is so much better, emigrate. Unlike many countries, America won't stop you from leaving.

Well, A.) recognizing difference by more fully describing yourself is not the same thing as stating it is bad to be an American and B.) the argument that you must fully agree with what America does or has done or leave is clearly fallacious, committing the fallacy of the false dichotomy.

And yes, I understand why an African American will call him/her self that: so that they and others do not forget how they got here, so that they and others don't forget that the US has a history that it has come to terms with and has failed to do so. I mean, you oppress someone, whether it be the Indigenous population or enslaved people from Africa or Irish people forced to labor in horrendous conditions (which make Foxconn look like a Summer Camp) and locked out of jobs that could improve their lot, for four hundred years, at times denying their very humanity, doing everything to exclude them, and only then get angry that they may want to differentiate themselves from the people who have been doing the oppressing? And if you say "that's not my fault, my ancestors weren't here in this country, a part of that" then are you not doing the same exact thing that you are criticizing in others: hyphenating your American identity, implicitly if not explicity?

Many other countries have come to terms with multiple identities within one national community; I don't see why the US can't do this. It will simply have to get over its historical amnesia first. A nice first start would be getting rid of that hideous law in Arizona. I mean the territory was frikkin' conquered from Mexico in an grossly immoral war that pillars of American culture such as Thoreau and Lincoln recognized as such, and you are going to get on a high horse about 'respecting the law' and the like in order to justify excluding the descendants of those from whom your ancestors (physical or spiritual) pilfered the land? The nerve.

Luqman

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I disagree with the policy the owners implemented, but you're right. The death threats and insults they received have no place in a civilized society.


.....If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.
..........— Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) 3rd President of the United States. First Inaugural Address.

Of course, Lincoln wasn't a big fan of that policy, what with sending in the troops to shut down Newspapers critical of his Administration and its policy vis-a-vis the South. Oh, and then suspending habeus corpus to make sure that those people don't get out for a long time.

So.... Lincoln and Jefferson: Undead fight to the death! er... resurrection?

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

Of course, Lincoln wasn't a big fan of that policy, what with sending in the troops to shut down Newspapers critical of his Administration and its policy vis-a-vis the South. Oh, and then suspending habeus corpus to make sure that those people don't get out for a long time.

So.... Lincoln and Jefferson: Undead fight to the death! er... resurrection?

You're right, he wasn't. Lincoln took some rather drastic steps during those trying times.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by BuddyBoy

Can I clarify something? I'd appreciate it if you could make the real effort to put yourself in the following hypothetical situation. Let's say you rented out a room to a student or such in your house, and they chose to drape a nazi flag in their window, or a tattered, ripped and burned american flag with, say, a large red circle and slash though it, you'd be fine with that being displayed on your property and defend their right to do so?

Or would you tell them to take it down or face eviction?

renting out a room in my private home (which I have done) is a LOT different than renting a domicile in public building intended to stimulate income

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by BuddyBoy

Can I clarify something? I'd appreciate it if you could make the real effort to put yourself in the following hypothetical situation. Let's say you rented out a room to a student or such in your house, and they chose to drape a nazi flag in their window, or a tattered, ripped and burned american flag with, say, a large red circle and slash though it, you'd be fine with that being displayed on your property and defend their right to do so?

Or would you tell them to take it down or face eviction?

If they had a signed lease that specifically stated they could not display anything in their windows, then they would have to be asked to take it down and if they didn't then eviction proceedings could begin.

If there was no written lease agreement, then then I would ask them to take it down. If they didn't, and if what they were doing bothered me enough, I would stop renting to them. If there was a written lease that didn't contain any mention about it, then I would be SOL if they didn't comply when asked to remove it. Again, if I was bothered enough by it, I wouldn't renew their lease.

Frankly, I would be more upset about the swastika being displayed rather than disfigured American flag. The first is a display of evil belief, the second is merely undergraduate stupidity. I'm sure most of us who've been to college had a point in time when our naive childhood belief in the inherent goodness of all of America's past actions had those particular blinders ripped from our eyes, and we went through our "disgust with America" phase. Most people grow out of that and develop a more balanced and mature view of this country's history.