Classic The nook is bad for eBooks

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Kolenka

I'd maybe half-agree with this assessment. Problem is that B&N and eReader format books have been using this style DRM for awhile now. In the lead up to getting the nook ready for launch, I'd expect they wanted to keep the DRM they have been using for years supported.

Approaching it from that standpoint, B&N had two options if they wanted to go with ADE-style ePub distribution going forward:

1) Do what Sony did and encourage everyone to redownload books in a 'big conversion' and accept new restrictions that they didn't have before on the redownloaded books. (Sony's restrictions were similar to ADE's so it wasn't really anything new for customers)

2) Convince Adobe to take on the existing DRM for PDB as an extension to the ADE SDK so that B&N can still 'get with the program' without leaving everyone in the cold or requiring B&N customers to change what they expect to get from their e-book stores.

#1 gets B&N blasted for forcing new restrictions on customers. #2 gets B&N blasted for the short-term pain of them being the first having this second form of ADE DRM (despite the more lax restrictions).

A secret option #3 of selling in both PDB and ePub with each having different restrictions is also possible, but has the downside of being just as confusing to the buyer, if not more.

Yes, I would say B&N has done a poor job communicating the issues of their DRM policies. You have to delve into their FAQ to get the full details, and the FAQ in question isn't exactly linked from any of the books themselves to discuss it (not in any intuitive manner anyways).

However, from an engineering standpoint, and from considering it from more angles, I'd say the path they picked is the best option. The average customer going by what B&N puts up on the page (and not trying to figure out how to stretch their dollar by being a tech-saavy buyer reading between the lines) will pretty much be fine and not even notice the conversion, and within a year it'll be possible to take more and more of their content to devices beyond what they list without having to strip the DRM.

The problem is that B&N is using ePub as .epub without informing giving enough upfront information for customers to make an informed decision. Where is B&N telling customers (in an easy to find place) on the website about this new DRM and that there ePub use it and won't work with any hardware/software not from B&N? B&N gets blasted for taking what was a workable system and mucking it up big time. Granted, the system wasn't perfect, but for each format, we had ONE DRM scheme. So when you bought an eBook in a given format and it has DRm, you knew what DRM it had. Now we have ePub with two different DRM schemes and B&N is not disclosing their new scheme well enough on their website. So people who do not know can (and have) end up buying ePub that's useless. And to make matters worse, B&N won't refund people's money. ePub was never such a mess before the nook.

[Kolenka]

B&N makes no claims that their content works elsewhere right now.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/ebooks...?cds2Pid=28413 Has their eBook FAQ where they tell you the following about support:

Barnes & Noble eBooks currently come in proprietary .pdb or ePub format. NOTE: Currently only the iPhone, Mac and PC clients will be able to read the ePub format.

They then add a note about the nook further down in that section.

The FAQ has a link from the "Learn More" link by the "Digital eBook" logo on the book. The learn more on the link about what devices are supported also call out exactly what they currently support.

They have another FAQ which is pretty darn well hidden discussing their ADE situation (and that should be more visible, definitely and I'm not even sure if it still exists, that's how well hidden it is).

The problem with refunds is that there is zero guarantee that you are 'returning' the item. It'd be nice that they would offer a credit for this, yes, but as they have zero way to revoke the license, I can understand the problems from their side as well.

At this point, I'd say just find some cabbages to love and read the ePub on the Sony anyways, and take your business elsewhere from now on.

EDIT: Aha, the reason it is hidden so well is because the FAQ regarding B&N and the ADE update is on Adobe's website: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/digitalp...noble_faq.html

[user_none]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ePub was never such a mess before the nook.

Yes it was. This very situation is a result of the EPUB spec being written specifically to support multiple DRM systems on top of the format. All B&N has done is follow the spec and released compliant EPUB files. In regard to them not using a different file extension, it is still an EPUB file.

I find it hard to believe that this situation was not foreseen. A format that can have almost any number of DRM formats attached to it, still being compliant, and allowing it to continue to be called EPUB...

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by user_none

Yes it was. This very situation is a result of the EPUB spec being written specifically to support multiple DRM systems on top of the format. All B&N has done is follow the spec and released compliant EPUB files. In regard to them not using a different file extension, it is still an EPUB file.

I find it hard to believe that this situation was not foreseen. A format that can have almost any number of DRM formats attached to it, still being compliant, and allowing it to continue to be called EPUB...

Amazon was not stupid enough to claim that AZW is Mobipocket even though under the DRM, it is Mobipocket. B&N could have done the same thing and changed the file extention to something else to let people know that it's not the same DRMed ePub as before.

[user_none]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Amazon was not stupid enough to claim that AZW is Mobipocket even though under the DRM, it is Mobipocket. B&N could have done the same thing and changed the file extention to something else to let people know that it's not the same DRMed ePub as before.

The EPUB spec allows B&N to call it EPUB because according to the spec it still is EPUB. Like I said one of the parts of the EPUB spec is to allow multiple DRM system to be used on the files while still being EPUB.

Also, Amazon did and still does make the same mistake by claim that AZW and TPZ are the same. Every book I've bought with the Kindle For PC software uses the PRC file extension. Regardless if it's AZW or TPZ. The only way I can tell them apart is by looking at the first few bytes of the file to see if it has a MOBI header.

Further, why would B&N want to use a different file extension. That would have made people think they were selling their own propitiatory format. They were planning on doing that with the eReader format but decided against it. Instead opting to use EPUB.

The point is. B&N has done nothing wrong in regard to calling their book EPUB because they conform to the EPUB specification which allows for this confusion to exist in the first place.

[Kolenka]

Well, on the site itself, the only place B&N really mentions ePub is in the same pages that say their ePub is currently proprietary and only works with Mac, PC, iPhone and nook.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Kolenka

B&N makes no claims that their content works elsewhere right now.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/ebooks...?cds2Pid=28413 Has their eBook FAQ where they tell you the following about support:



They then add a note about the nook further down in that section.

The FAQ has a link from the "Learn More" link by the "Digital eBook" logo on the book. The learn more on the link about what devices are supported also call out exactly what they currently support.

They have another FAQ which is pretty darn well hidden discussing their ADE situation (and that should be more visible, definitely and I'm not even sure if it still exists, that's how well hidden it is).

The problem with refunds is that there is zero guarantee that you are 'returning' the item. It'd be nice that they would offer a credit for this, yes, but as they have zero way to revoke the license, I can understand the problems from their side as well.

At this point, I'd say just find some cabbages to love and read the ePub on the Sony anyways, and take your business elsewhere from now on.

EDIT: Aha, the reason it is hidden so well is because the FAQ regarding B&N and the ADE update is on Adobe's website: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/digitalp...noble_faq.html

The FAQ does say proprietary and to mist people, that would mean with DRM and even then they would not know it means different DRM for ePub. Nobody has yet to find anyplace on B&N's site that says (in plain English) about this new DRM for ePub. So the average person won't know what's going on before making the purchase. And then B&N refuses to refund the money on top of the confusion.

[MerLock]

I first posted my concern about this way back when B&N announced that they would go with EPUB albeit with the possibility of a different DRM scheme than Adobe Adept. Back then, a few folks had already started inquiring whether or not they can purchase B&N EPUB books for their Sony readers. Having two different DRM schemes for one format is just plain confusing.

I can't blame B&N since the situation could've easily been reversed with Sony bringing in another EPUB DRM scheme after B&N did. I blame the need for DRM in the first place or at least the way DRM is setup currently. As been voiced numerous times, I feel that DRM really hurts people who actually buy legal copies of their ebooks. Most ebooks cost as much as discounted paper books and ebooks have so much more restrictions.

If I purchase a paper book, I don't have to worry about where and what I can read it on. This is where ebooks fail.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by user_none

Yes it was. This very situation is a result of the EPUB spec being written specifically to support multiple DRM systems on top of the format. All B&N has done is follow the spec and released compliant EPUB files. In regard to them not using a different file extension, it is still an EPUB file.

I find it hard to believe that this situation was not foreseen. A format that can have almost any number of DRM formats attached to it, still being compliant, and allowing it to continue to be called EPUB...

Maybe the plan is to cause much confusion and force people to stop using DRM? I also cannot understand how they could write the standard this way.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The FAQ does say proprietary and to mist people, that would mean with DRM and even then they would not know it means different DRM for ePub. Nobody has yet to find anyplace on B&N's site that says (in plain English) about this new DRM for ePub. So the average person won't know what's going on before making the purchase. And then B&N refuses to refund the money on top of the confusion.

The FAQ also says it only works with iPhone, Mac, PC and nook (emphasis mine).

If a buyer reads between the lines and thinks "Gee, maybe it works with more than what they say", that isn't exactly B&Ns fault for that customer doing so, as B&N told them otherwise.

Again:

- You can learn to love some cabbages and read it on the Sony anyways.
- B&N's policy is likely due to the simple fact that they have ZERO way to actually revoke the license. What you basically ask B&N to do is give you your money back, while you can still run around with the file, read it on the supported devices, or even more.

I can understand your position, but right now, it isn't as if you are out the money right now unless you also went out and bought this book again from another store.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by tompe

Maybe the plan is to cause much confusion and force people to stop using DRM? I also cannot understand how they could write the standard this way.

Well both Adobe and Overdrive were on the board of directors of the IDPF at the time. I believe that Bill McCoy from Adobe was the President. I'm just speculating that might have had something to do with it.

http://www.idpf.org/about/boardofdirectors.htm

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Barcey

Well both Adobe and Overdrive were on the board of directors of the IDPF at the time. I believe that Bill McCoy from Adobe was the President. I'm just speculating that might have had something to do with it.

http://www.idpf.org/about/boardofdirectors.htm

Yep. Jus' sayin'

[sunebird]

The reasons I went to B&N to purchase the book was 1. Sony Reader site did not have the book and 2. This excerpt of a news release put out by Barnes & Noble, promoting their bookstore. Here is the quote "EPUB is an open standard, and is used by Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Sony and Google's own book service. That means that books purchased from Kobo or Barnes & Noble can be used with any EPUB-compatible device, similar to how MP3 music files can be played on any digital music device.
Anyway, this problem has made me very fond of cabbages. Now I can read the book on everything, Calibre, Digital Editions, Sony Etc.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The FAQ does say proprietary and to mist people, that would mean with DRM and even then they would not know it means different DRM for ePub.

How about the part where it says:
"Currently only the iPhone, Mac and PC clients will be able to read the ePub format."?

That seems like plain English to me. I'd think that "most people" would be able to figure that statement out, but maybe B&N erred by not putting it in 200 pt. red blinky text.

[sunebird]

How about their publicity stunts, I repeat this AP news release
"EPUB is an open standard, and is used by Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Sony and Google's own book service. That means that books purchased from Kobo or Barnes & Noble can be used with ANY EPUB-compatible device, similar to how MP3 music files can be played on any digital music device.

Another B&N news release:
Through the partnership with Plastic Logic, Barnes & Noble hopes to counter Amazon’s Kindle threat. Plastic Logic is expected to start shipping a new device early next year that could be a rival to Amazon’s broadsheet Kindle DX launched last month. Plastic Logic’s e-reader is 0.27 inches thick and has a 8.5 x 11 inch E Ink touchscreen display that makes it seem almost like a large notepad.

Barnes & Noble’s e-book store will support the EPub format that has also been adopted by Sony.

If one reads the news, they would assume that epub format is standard across all platforms.
When you open a *.doc document, it is a standard. When I see a doc or pdf I know I can open it up regardless of the brand computer I'm using.