Kindle Geographic Restrictions On US Website - Against US Buyers

[charleski]

All the law does is grant certain rights to the author, who is then allowed to assign those rights to others. If you want to claim the moral high ground and base the whole discussion on a strictly-defined positivist analysis of rights, then there is only one person ultimately responsible for eBooks not being available in a certain country, and that is the author.

In practice, obviously, the situation is far more complex and the real culprit is the creaking inefficiency of the publishing process.

Furthermore, it is somewhat misleading to paint a positivist rights analysis as the only high ground here. I see no objection in terms of natural law to evading a store's geographic restriction - the author still gets paid, as do those who have invested in the book. If others have invested in the book as well but decide not to exercise their rights to recoup their investment, then the purchaser can hardly be blamed. Terms such as 'entitlement' are just a whitewash to cover over the real issues here.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by charleski

... I see no objection in terms of natural law to evading a store's geographic restriction - the author still gets paid, ..

not if it's an illegal copy from the dark side. That's more the issue I'm concerned with. I don't believe in geographic restrictions myself, it should be a level playing field, but it's not due the law (including "agreements" and "contracts")

[Wreybies]

Ok, this may have been covered given that this is a post in page 9 of a thread, but....

I got turned away for a purchase at Fictionwise for an ebook that, after lodging a
complaint, I was told I could not download due to - yup, you guessed it - geographic
restriction.

This made no sense to me at all not because I had purchased ebooks in the past that
had the same geographic restriction, but because I bought and downloaded with no
problems another ebook after the ebook which I could not download which
had the exact same restriction on it.

When I complained to Fictionwise I got a form letter response that never actually
addressed the question which I posed to them.

I live in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is a US territory. When I look at an
ebook and see a geographic restriction, where do I fall, geographically???

I never got an actual answer from them, just the promise of a refund which I have yet
to see.

They have lost my business, not for having imposed geographic restrictions, but for answering
me with formletter e-mails that were nonsensical and completely non sequitur.

Reinaldo F.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by Morrigan

People's attitudes amaze me.. I really do not understand the thinking behind "if a book is not available for me, i will lie and then it is or I will simply get it for free from the darknet"... the sense of entitlement is scary.

This is not a sense of entitlement but legitimate outrage at discrimination. How would you like it if you went into a restaurant and they told you they can't sell you coffee because you're British? That guy over there has just got his coffee but you can't cause you're a Brit. Brits only get tea in our establishment, the Yanks get only coffee, the Russians are only allowed strong spirits, and Africans get nothing at all 'cause that's how we've negotiated our contract with the drinks supplier. And that's essentially the experience buyers from around the world get in an Amazon store.

I don't care whether it's the publisher's fault or Amazon's own - they've got to work it out between themselves, it's not my problem. They can't expect me to respect their silly contracts if the implication of these contracts is a virtual sign that says "Dogs and Irish not allowed" on their virtual store. This discrimination, however innocent its underlying reasons may be, is an affront to my sense of fairness and natural justice.

If someone wrote a distribution contract that said "this book cannot be sold to blacks, jews or vegetarians", he would be told to get his head checked. But when a contract says "not to be sold to non-Americans", I'm supposed to respect that? If online stores and publishers don't respect my natural rights, I certainly won't give a damn for their copyright. If they don't want my money because I come from the wrong country, I'll get it for free, and there's nothing they can do to stop me.

[HansTWN]

Sorry to say that, but this is ridiculous nonsense. Nobody is discriminating against you, publishers and booksellers have made contracts based on the old world order (quite often these contracts are even based on different tax laws and special protection for bookstores in some countries) and now with ebooks they run up into the problem that books can be downloaded from any store anywhere in the world -- and they need some time to work it out.

That is no excuse for stealing. Working around these restrictions is pretty easy. And if they ever do find a way to prevent me from buying something then I will read some other book.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Nobody is discriminating against you, publishers and booksellers have made contracts based on the old world order.

...

Working around these restrictions is pretty easy. And if they ever do find a way to prevent me from buying something then I will read some other book.

You know, when blacks were not allowed on the same bus with whites, or when women would not even be considered for a decent job, that too was "based on the old world order". And "working around those restrictions" was pretty easy too. You could just find some other country to live in, or be a housewife and spend all your life in front of the kitchen sink, what's wrong with that?

In your "old world", geographic restrictions on selling books were based on the real-world limitations, so they were not discriminatory. You couldn't blame Waterstones for not opening a store in Congo so that some tribsman could buy a book in English. Now, however, this tribesman is one click away from the store, but the store refuses to treat him as a paying customer because he's from the wrong continent. The online stores and publishers keep acting as if the real-world geographic limitations still apply on the Internet, and refuse to recognize that technology has made their old business model blatantly discriminatory and anticompetitive. Old restrictions on WHERE you can sell (which are merely obsolete and anti-free trade) have somehow been translated into restrictions on WHO you can sell to, which are just plain wrong, unfair and anticonstitutional.

So if the publishers don't respect my basic rights, they should not act all outraged if I refuse to respect their rights in return. Call it stealing if you like, it means nothing to me. If copyright holders throw my money in my face because they don't like my nationality, I'll help myself to their "copy" for free and won't feel any compunction about it.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by meraxes

So if the publishers don't respect my basic rights, they should not act all outraged if I refuse to respect their rights in return. Call it stealing if you like, it means nothing to me. If copyright holders throw my money in my face because they don't like my nationality, I'll help myself to their "copy" for free and won't feel any compunction about it.

Sorry but I don't see buying an e-book in a specific country like a basic right. I think we are losing the perspective.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Sorry to say that, but this is ridiculous nonsense. Nobody is discriminating against you, publishers and booksellers have made contracts based on the old world order (quite often these contracts are even based on different tax laws and special protection for bookstores in some countries) and now with ebooks they run up into the problem that books can be downloaded from any store anywhere in the world -- and they need some time to work it out.

That is no excuse for stealing. Working around these restrictions is pretty easy. And if they ever do find a way to prevent me from buying something then I will read some other book.

+ + +

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by meraxes

...

In your "old world", geographic restrictions on selling books were based on the real-world limitations, so they were not discriminatory. ....

So if the publishers don't respect my basic rights, they should not act all outraged if I refuse to respect their rights in return. Call it stealing if you like, it means nothing to me. If copyright holders throw my money in my face because they don't like my nationality, I'll help myself to their "copy" for free and won't feel any compunction about it.

You are simply wrong here. The restrictions were based on business agreements and legal contracts. Nothing to do with personal rights or any of that.

Taking something that is not yours is stealing, it doesn't matter the reason or what you call it or the reason for it.

Intellectual property rights are more and more important in the digital age. We are in a transition (aren't we always) phase, laws and rights and business practices will change, but in the mean time that does not excuse criminal activity.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Sorry but I don't see buying an e-book in a specific country like a basic right.

I guess you could say the same about buying a pint in a pub with a sign on its door - "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish". I mean, what's wrong with that, it's not a basic right, just walk on until you find a pub that serves the Irish, right? Except that when I tried to buy George Martin's "A Feast for Crows" for Kindle on PC, I was told to walk on because I'm from Europe, and there's simply no other place to buy it. Plenty of places to get it for free though.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by meraxes

.. no other place to buy it. Plenty of places to get it for free though.

What you mean to say is plenty of illegal places to steal it.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You are simply wrong here. The restrictions were based on business agreements and legal contracts. Nothing to do with personal rights or any of that.

Business agreements and legal contracts are the publisher's problem, not mine. I am not about to waive my basic right to be treated in the same way as everyone else just because some moron has penned the contract for digital distribution as if he's never heard of the Internet. What if you were refused service at your local hairdresser's because the agreement with the landlord says only whites/blacks/Americans are allowed on the premises, and you look suspiciously black/white/French? Nothing to do with personal rights, it's just that our contract does not allow us to serve blacks, sorry ma'am. How's that for an excuse?

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

That is no excuse for stealing. Working around these restrictions is pretty easy.

And in many cases, a criminal offence - rather than the civil offence of unauthorised copying.

(For a start, there's the DMCA. You're evading a "technological measure" which “effectively controls access to a work”)

You're not really helping your case.

[meraxes]

Originally Posted by kennyc

What you mean to say is plenty of illegal places to steal it.

Well, stealing has some sneaky connotations I don't like, as if I snatch the book while nobody looks and then run away
What I have in mind is more of a daylight robbery. The guy behind the counter tells me to piss off and take my filthy money because no Irish are allowed inside, whereupon I thwack him over the head with a suitably heavy volume of "A Feast for Crows", take the book and walk away calm as a toad in the sun.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by meraxes

I guess you could say the same about buying a pint in a pub with a sign on its door - "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish". I mean, what's wrong with that, it's not a basic right, just walk on until you find a pub that serves the Irish, right? Except that when I tried to buy George Martin's "A Feast for Crows" for Kindle on PC, I was told to walk on because I'm from Europe, and there's simply no other place to buy it. Plenty of places to get it for free though.

Sorry, I don't think it's the same, but perhaps my concept of basic rights is quite more basic.