A silly question: what is the advantage of ePub for a reader?

[kovidgoyal]

Sigh here we go again. The ultimate purpose of typography is to convey information to the end user in an efficient manner.

A hand crafted, fixed size layout achieves a certain boost in cognition, lets say that boost is x units.

Now the boost in cognition achievable by using semantic markup, which allow computers to preprocess information before presenting it to the user is y, where y is a number that grows exponentially as the amount of information available to process grows. To put it succintly

y >> x

Therefore to claim that we should sacrifice the gigantic boost is cognition that semantic formats allow for the tiny and static boost in cognition that hand crafted, fixed size layouts allow, is ridiculous.

Now the boost in cognition I receive from a hand-crafted, fixed size layout is so much smaller than the boost in cognition I receive from a layout that allows computers to preprocess the information and there

Originally Posted by ahi

You are right, AMJB. But for electronic books, reflow formats are definitely and objectively the wrong choice... unless of course we restrict the definition of eBooks, as people presumably do here, to novels with uncomplicated layouts.

Books are supposed to be able to convey information with far greater complexity (not to mention elegance) than reflow formats will ever be able to handle. Why? Because typesetting/bookmaking is not a machine-solvable problem and thus necessarily requires human intervention/assistance.

The above are facts that I am yet to see credibly disputed by anyone, or for that matter by somebody that that seemed to understand and acknowledge the full range of issues.

None of this changes the fact that most PDFs available today are unusable on eBook devices. But, in turn, the fact that most PDFs available today are unusable doesn't change the fact that only PDFs and similarly static solutions can solve all the problems of bookmaking (electronic or otherwise) and dynamic formats will not foreseeably be able to do so until computers have basically human-equivalent level intelligence (seeing as how that is exactly what is required for typesetting/bookmaking).

Yes, let's all be friends. Enjoy, everyone, your reflowing ePubs, LITs, LRFs, et cetera... particularly until 99% of PDFs out there stop being sh*te on account of poor production (which has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of the format). But why pretend that PDF couldn't be used to easily make a better looking and more professional eBook than can be produced with any of those other choices? Why does the truth hurt so much? Particularly when it is years away from having relevance/impact on people existing eBook related habits?

And if large-print editions are needed, by the way... nothing stopping publishers even today from including the content twice within a single PDF, once professionally typeset with a 10pt-12pt font, and once likewise treated with a 14pt-18pt font.

Reflowing the text for the sake of somebody having the benefit of a large-print edition is a bit like keeping all your plants in your garden inside ceramic pots just barely submerged in the ground so that you can move them around easily... the desired benefit is there, but the downsides are numerous and blatantly obvious to those that understand gardening (or, in our instance, typography/bookmaking).

- Ahi

[ekaser]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I am curious, can EPUB reproduce the attached faithfully, and searchable and navigable?

(PDF, of course, can.)

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This is a straw-man argument.

PDF has its strengths.

ePUB has its strengths.

Suggesting that there should be one and ONLY one ebook format is ...well, perhaps not stupid, but certainly narrow-minded and short-sighted. Just as not every pbook is the same physical size, with the same physical covers, with the same physical binding, etc, not all ebooks will work best in ANY one file format (for all of the obvious reasons already beat to death along with the horse). Even arguing that one format is 'superior' to another (without caveats) is a dangerous proposition. Every tool is designed for a certain set of jobs, and while it can often be shoe-horned into some other jobs, there will usually be ANOTHER tool that will work better for those other jobs.

Yes, PDF is your best bet for doing that cover, keeping all the formatting as you want, and making it searchable. But that ONLY makes sense when your e-reader device is large enough to comfortably display it (so that it's readable). And no matter HOW technology advances (until it becomes a mind/eye link that essentially makes the e-reader device disappear), there will always be a market for small, pocket-sized devices for people who wish to read "on the go", and that involves "reflow" and "text zoom".

As someone else said, everyone should quit trying to claim that their opinion is the only correct one and everyone else is wrong. Adults are generally capable of seeing other points of view besides their own, and admitting that those may very well BE valid points of view for some people under some circumstances.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by ekaser

This is a straw-man argument.
...
Suggesting that there should be one and ONLY one ebook format is ...well, perhaps not stupid, but certainly narrow-minded and short-sighted.....

Pointing out, that EPUB is not robust enough for what is perhaps the most widely read publication format today, is a straw-man argument?!

The market is already littered with often incompatible formats, which can render and reflow plain text, on small screens. The mobile version of PDF can do it too.

Given the above, I am simply asking, if EPUB is not suitable for complex layouts, which can easily be done in PDF format, what exactly is the purpose of EPUB (other than to counteract mobi/azw, and to further fragment the market?)

[K-Thom]

Sonist, you are arguing as a child would. I would like to see you taking a paperback out of the shelves in a book store, walk up to the clerk and point out that this paperback never will be able to represent the same printing quality, layout and color intensity than that high gloss magazine over there.

What do you think he/she would answer? "Of course not, since this is a paperback and that over there is a magazine."

Nobody would read a lengthy novel in magazine format on magazine gloss paper, for very good reasons. Strain to the eye, paper will crease much more easily, handling, price, etc.

But this is what you expect people to do when advocating for PDF as if there weren't some very good reasons for co-existing different formats for different needs.

[dmikov]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Given the above, I am simply asking, if EPUB is not suitable for complex layouts, which can easily be done in PDF format, what exactly is the purpose of EPUB (other than to counteract mobi/azw, and to further fragment the market?)

Ehh...

Because it's better in dozens of other ways then pdf, that are important to great many people.*

My little paddle boat can traverse the little lake in my yard and my car cannot, but I take my car to work.

* It is possible to serve website as collection of pdf pages or gif images, but people prefer to have it in html for instance.

[RJ_Cruze_Jr]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Sigh here we go again. The ultimate purpose of typography is to convey information to the end user in an efficient manner.

A hand crafted, fixed size layout achieves a certain boost in cognition, lets say that boost is x units.

Now the boost in cognition achievable by using semantic markup, which allow computers to preprocess information before presenting it to the user is y, where y is a number that grows exponentially as the amount of information available to process grows. To put it succintly

y >> x

Therefore to claim that we should sacrifice the gigantic boost is cognition that semantic formats allow for the tiny and static boost in cognition that hand crafted, fixed size layouts allow, is ridiculous.

Now the boost in cognition I receive from a hand-crafted, fixed size layout is so much smaller than the boost in cognition I receive from a layout that allows computers to preprocess the information and there

To take your technical terms and put them into... um, more technical terms, the story is the signal, and the book is the carrier. And the purpose of that carrier is to convey that signal from the author to the reader. Both paper books and electronic books serve that purpose quite well. Thanks to several centuries of technological lead time, paper books are a much more aesthetically and sensually pleasing than e-books. However, if you strip away the leather covers and the gilded page edges, it's still just a carrier.

Now, this is a purely subjective and utterly unscientific observation, but I have downloaded the electronic editions of many books that I own in paper format, and I have to say that I find the stories just as enjoyable in e-format as I did in hardcopy. Whether as dollops of ink on wood pulp, or pixels on liquid crystal, a thumping-good read is a thumping-good read.

Mind you, I think that there's still a lot of room for improvement in the electronic carrier, but I'm sure that will come as the technology matures.

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by K-Thom

Nobody would read a lengthy novel in magazine format on magazine gloss paper, for very good reasons. Strain to the eye, paper will crease much more easily, handling, price, etc.

I'm about to start reading a novel that was originally published exactly that way. It's Gentlemen of the Road, and it was first published as a Sunday Serial in the New York Times Magazine (see the bottom of that page for other books that were originally serialized there). Just sayin...

[K-Thom]

It is possible to serve website as collection of pdf pages or gif images, but people prefer to have it in html for instance

Yeah, imagine all these monitors designed in landscape format all these years when most PDF are upright. Why did hardware manufacturers never consider the pure perfection of PDF? Maybe people who prefer PDF tend to lie on their desk while reading.

[K-Thom]

I'm about to start reading a novel that was originally published exactly that way. It's Gentlemen of the Road, and it was first published as a Sunday Serial in the New York Times Magazine (see the bottom of that page for other books that were originally serialized there). Just sayin...

If you're finished I would really be interested in your reading experience. And the way the magazine looks afterwards. What is the actual size of these mags?

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by K-Thom

Sonist, you are arguing as a child would. I would like to see you taking a paperback out of the shelves in a book store, walk up to the clerk and point out that this paperback never will be able to represent the same printing quality, layout and color intensity than that high gloss magazine over there.
....

And this nonsensical analogy is supposed to illustrate..., what?

You are failing to comprehend my argument. Before ebooks become mainstream, there must be format standardization. And whatever the format is, it must be capable of dealing perfectly with publications such as magazines, as well a trash novels. And the visual quality of the products must improve.

I don't even know why I am arguing, other than this being a slow day of long conference calls....

Because regardless of what you think, PDF enjoys an infinitely higher adoption rate, than any of the formats discussed here.

And because, as much I like e-ink, there is a very good chance, that within a year or so, larger-screen devices from Apple and others, may relegate current ereaders and their formats, to the dustbin of electronic history. But PDFs will be with us for a while longer, IMO.

[Barcey]

I'm not sure why you're using a magazine cover as an example of what is required? The cover is just intended to grab peoples attention and entice them to buy it. I enjoy buxom young ladies as much as the next guy but I don't need all that text all over them.

When I get to the content of the magazine I'm very happy to have the reflow. What's important to me is that I can select the font and re-size it so that I can comfortably read it. I buy Playboy for the articles.

[K-Thom]

Because regardless of what you think, PDF enjoys an infinitely higher adoption rate, than any of the formats discussed here.

Yup, correct. For the moment. PDF has a share of about 50% of all formats. Right now. So?

But PDFs will be with us for a while longer, IMO.

Which is why most large online shops around the world switch to ePub right now and none to PDF? Hm?

But I've got to admit it was a clever move of Adobe adding the ePub support to InDesign, inventing the ADE and the related SDK since it is already designed to work both ePub and PDF.
So in the long run Adobe won't suffer from either preference. It will just adapt.

[MerLock]

In my opinion, current small screen eink readers were meant to target people who enjoyed paperback novels. Imagine having a magazine page or a newspaper page displayed on one page of these small screen devices.

I think the targeted consumer for the small screen devices are for those who enjoy reading paperback novels which can be read comfortably on the small screens. For most purposes ePUB should handle this fine.

The reason we are only starting to see larger screens is because of the cost. eink screens are relatively new and pricey. I'm sure we'll see larger screens offered in the future and perhaps those devices will support PDF which displays things like Magazines and multi-column texts well.

So we'll see ePUBs for ebook novels and PDF's for things like magazines/newspapers/textbooks. Somethings just won't display well on a 6" screen, like why magazines and newspapers aren't printed in paperback size paper. So I can't see why both can't coexist since as mentioned before, ePUB tends to work well with small screens and PDF would work better at displaying larger sized documents on larger screens.

When asked is ePUB better or PDF better? I guess it depends on the situation.
My opinions of course.

[Syniurge]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I am curious, can EPUB reproduce the attached faithfully, and searchable and navigable?

(PDF, of course, can.)

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It can be done in XHTML+CSS, so probably ePub too..

Text aligned differently on the same line is not a problem even for small screens, in Mobipocket devices tables with too many columns are splitted to fit the screen size.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Syniurge

It can be done in XHTML+CSS, so probably ePub too..

And note that ePUB is SVG too.

Originally Posted by Sonist

I am curious, can EPUB reproduce the attached faithfully, and searchable and navigable?

I somehow doubt the typographic quality of the text inside that magazine is high quality...