Adequacy of EPUB?

[HarryT]

Sarmat,

Please could you provide us with specific details of what is it you're proposing? I certainly don't feel able to usefully comment on your proposed standard until I actually see it.

Thanks,

[Solitaire1]

Hitch wrote as part of a post:

Originally Posted by Hitch

What word processor or...? are you using, when you are styling your book?

I'm using OpenOffice.org (OO.o) and I've been generating my ebooks as PDFs, mainly because I can know exactly what my ebook will look like on my ereader. Plus, its extremely easy to generate PDFs using OO.o. I did install OO.o EPUB generator but I wasn't happy with the results (as an example, I ran into problems with non-standard style names).

I've been considering using OO.o to generate an ebook as basic HTML (OO.o can generate it as HTML 3.2), and then use Calibre to create an EPUB from that document. OO.o seems to create fairly clean HTML and can also clean up the tagging in an HTML document so I'm hoping that it will work.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by Jellby

So your "ideal" format is only for that 95%? Anything out of the ordinary doesn't fit in your format?

For books out of the ordinary there are other formats, like PDF and DJVU.

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

For books out of the ordinary there are other formats, like PDF and DJVU.

Or, books out of the ordinary are effectively a design problem, and we're better served with a format that gives us the flexibility to solve design problems.

[Jellby]

I don't mean books out of the ordinary as a whole, but books with small out-of-the-ordinary details: a fancy alignment or specific format need here or there. Many otherwise ordinary books have something like that, like the full-page "YES" (or was it "NO"?) in one of Terry Pratchett's books, the "mouse tail" poem in Alice in Wonderland, etc.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

Or, books out of the ordinary are effectively a design problem, and we're better served with a format that gives us the flexibility to solve design problems.

EPub 3 gives you that flexibility with Fixed layout ePub among other solutions. See our wiki. But some think it is too much.

Dale

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

Now here's a job for you: Download a few sample books from each of the local bookmakers and find out.

+1. There are plenty of recent books here that are well-enough made to serve as a samples for discussion.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Sarmat,

Please could you provide us with specific details of what is it you're proposing? I certainly don't feel able to usefully comment on your proposed standard until I actually see it.

Thanks,

Yes. This would be far more productive than the current discussion. As you're adamant that it will work, give us a link to the spec, and we can all know what you're talking about.

FYI: I see no distinction between the bookmaker and the reader. At my shop, we are all both. The ability of a bookmaker to enjoy making the book does, in effect, translate to the reader. You persist in behaving as though the reader is normally going to give two hoots about whether or not a clip of poetry is defined as "poetry," rather than "parasimple," and they're not. Sure, a handful might want to see the individual semantics for each chunk of text, but in that 95% you say you're serving, most won't.

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

For books out of the ordinary there are other formats, like PDF and DJVU.

Lord save us. PDF isn't an eBook format. It's a kluge for an eBook reader at best. Ditto DJVU.

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

Hitch wrote as part of a post:

I'm using OpenOffice.org (OO.o) and I've been generating my ebooks as PDFs, mainly because I can know exactly what my ebook will look like on my ereader. Plus, its extremely easy to generate PDFs using OO.o. I did install OO.o EPUB generator but I wasn't happy with the results (as an example, I ran into problems with non-standard style names).

I've been considering using OO.o to generate an ebook as basic HTML (OO.o can generate it as HTML 3.2), and then use Calibre to create an EPUB from that document. OO.o seems to create fairly clean HTML and can also clean up the tagging in an HTML document so I'm hoping that it will work.

Urk. Well...depending on what you're doing: PDF isn't really an "eBook format." I know, I know, thousands of web companies, etc., have sold ePDF "eBooks" on the net for years, but the inability of PDF to reflow (before everyone jumps on me, yes, I know that a PDF can be made that will resize and reflow, but 99.99% don't, thanks) really makes it clunky. Um...y'know, Pablo's Tutorial on ePUB-making, in the Wiki, is pretty darned good. Why don't you give that a go? I think you might be surprised at how much you like ePUB once you've made one the right way.

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

Or, books out of the ordinary are effectively a design problem, and we're better served with a format that gives us the flexibility to solve design problems.

:-) Ya mean, like ePUB?

Originally Posted by Jellby

I don't mean books out of the ordinary as a whole, but books with small out-of-the-ordinary details: a fancy alignment or specific format need here or there. Many otherwise ordinary books have something like that, like the full-page "YES" (or was it "NO"?) in one of Terry Pratchett's books, the "mouse tail" poem in Alice in Wonderland, etc.

Indeed. Like 98% of the books we see in my shop every day.

Originally Posted by DaleDe

EPub 3 gives you that flexibility with Fixed layout ePub among other solutions. See our wiki. But some think it is too much.

Dale

Dale: it's not that. I think that everybody here really likes CSS3; it's the whole multi-media thing that throws most off the ePUB3 scent. Myself, it's the landmarks vesus the NCX. I genuinely don't understand why on earth we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't see what Landmarks gets us, really. That, and of course, Apple's ridiculous influence on multimedia, is my only real gripe with ePUB3.

Hitch

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Hitch

+1. There are plenty of recent books here that are well-enough made to serve as a samples for discussion.



Dale: it's not that. I think that everybody here really likes CSS3; it's the whole multi-media thing that throws most off the ePUB3 scent. Myself, it's the landmarks vesus the NCX. I genuinely don't understand why on earth we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't see what Landmarks gets us, really. That, and of course, Apple's ridiculous influence on multimedia, is my only real gripe with ePUB3.

Hitch

Oh, I understand what people complain about but it is not germane to the discussion. The fact is that most of the corner cases that cannot be solved in ePub 2 can be solved in ePub 3. Now I am sure someone will find a case that cannot.

Dale

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Oh, I understand what people complain about but it is not germane to the discussion. The fact is that most of the corner cases that cannot be solved in ePub 2 can be solved in ePub 3. Now I am sure someone will find a case that cannot.

Dale

Of course. Hell, I probably have 2-3 in the shop that fit that description. ;-)

Hitch

[Toxaris]

I will stop feeding the troll. All he does is react to specific sentences without context and *never* actually genuine questions. Also, he ignores if someone falsifies one of his claims. That is no way of making a discussion.

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

I will stop feeding the troll. All he does is react to specific sentences without context and *never* actually genuine questions. Also, he ignores if someone falsifies one of his claims. That is no way of making a discussion.

That's why this thread is a boathouse.

[Arios]

@Solitaire1

Do you know Writer2xhtml? (here: http://writer2latex.sourceforge.net/).

With this extension you can export directly to epub, using Apache Open Office (the latest) or LibreOffice.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

I will stop feeding the troll. All he does is react to specific sentences without context and *never* actually genuine questions. Also, he ignores if someone falsifies one of his claims. That is no way of making a discussion.

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

That's why this thread is a boathouse.

You are both 100% right. Y'know, sometimes, I start to think that a thread like this is a language, or sometimes, a knowledge problem. As in, the OP can't fully or clearly express what he wants, or because he doesn't know XXX (e.g., about the DC data for ePUB), that he's simply erroneous. When that happens, I tend to try--unfortunately, repeatedly--to make progress.

But you are both quite right. By now, the OP here would have pointed at a usable standard, or something. The fact that he keeps saying that what he wants isn't DocBook really should have been the tell--the thing that tells me to give the frack up. I've inadvertently fed it. I'm out.

Hitch

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Myself, it's the landmarks vesus the NCX. I genuinely don't understand why on earth we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't see what Landmarks gets us, really.

The only advantage that a navigation document with landmarks has over an NCX file is that it can be easier updated, because it's basically an .xhtml file with some additional tags and attributes. I wouldn't worry too much about it, because it can be automatically generated from an .ncx file with the Sigil epub3 plugin.

Originally Posted by Hitch

[...] the OP can't fully or clearly express what he wants, or because he doesn't know XXX (e.g., about the DC data for ePUB), that he's simply erroneous. [...] By now, the OP here would have pointed at a usable standard, or something. The fact that he keeps saying that what he wants isn't DocBook really should have been the tell [...]

IMHO, DocBook is the closest thing to what the OP wants, and as you know it hasn't really caught on and I seriously doubt that it ever will. The fact that the OP hasn't mentioned it once is a clear sign that he doesn't know anything about markup languages for ebooks or other markup languages for that matter.
And as for the metadata shortcomings, he could theoretically define as many custom metadata entries in ePub3 ebooks as he wants using meta refines.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

The only advantage that a navigation document with landmarks has over an NCX file is that it can be easier updated, because it's basically an .xhtml file with some additional tags and attributes. I wouldn't worry too much about it, because it can be automatically generated from an .ncx file with the Sigil epub3 plugin.

Thx, Doits. Not worried; just don't understand what on earth they were thinking, other than...well, just ONE "toc," I guess.

IMHO, DocBook is the closest thing to what the OP wants, and as you know it hasn't really caught on and I seriously doubt that it ever will. The fact that the OP hasn't mentioned it once is a clear sign that he doesn't know anything about markup languages for ebooks or other markup languages for that matter.
And as for the metadata shortcomings, he could theoretically define as many custom metadata entries in ePub3 ebooks as he wants using meta refines.

Excellent points, all round. (I honestly thought, initially, he was discussing DocBook, which for all intents and purposes, DOES do what he wants, as near as I can tell.) Great pointer on the meta-refines, too. In fact, I didn't know that much about using those, so I've saved it to read through.

Hitch