Is all fantasy derivative of Tolkien? How to prove it isn't?

[Ghitulescu]

Originally Posted by Geralt

What are you even talking about? Fantastical creatures have been present in literature since the beginning. Just crack open any of the Greek, Indian,Chinese or any other epics and you'll find them. Fantasy has been around since mankind started telling each other stories. What place? It was always here in one form or other.

And nobody noticed that since 325AD and Gutenberg no such literature has ever been issued? It was the Renaissance (which actually means, and I am sure you know this, the pagan renaissance) when authors escaped the rigid church chains and could, stepwise, regain the upper hand in lay literature without fearing (or fearing less ) the heresy accusations and the associated burning at stake. Forbidden teachings started to flourish, staring with the science (it was a large vacuum there), then with literature, in particular political, and finally, as the public changed (males went to work, wives stayed at home) with romances and stories.

The East-Europe folklore is different, it is populated with "cute, dumb" monsters, that have their place only to get outsmarted by mythical heroes. In other words, the typical story is that a muliple-head dragon kidnaps the king's daughter, only to be saved by the local hero, via tricks (and here we have the teaching of the story) and/or with the smart aid of various good will people or creatures that lend him their help because (yet another teaching) the hero proved to be a good man in many respects (the hero is tested for his qualities), then he get her for wife and half of the kingdom. As probably many know, there were no kingdoms in East-Europe, not before late 1800'ies, and since the arrival of the Turks. And with so many stories like that, halving and halving kingdoms, even USA would have become smaller than Las Vegas. Those monsters rarely terrorised normal people, they simple went hunting king's daughters. I don't mind one, myself . For instance, it was the Germanic settlers that brought the scary Nordic stories into eg Carpathians, including vampires, undeads, and bad spirits.

[Greg Anos]

I'll mention Burton's translations of A Thousand and One Nights.

Loads and loads of fantasy...

[fjtorres]

Manly Wade Wellman's Silver John.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_John

Post Tolkien and owes nothing to him. More of a WEIRD TALES descendant but definitely fantasy, rather than horror. His influences are Appalachian folklore more than anything else.

[WillAdams]

Silver John is a favourite of mine. I'm pretty sure I have all the books floating around the house somewhere.

Still very saddened that I didn't buy the John Thunstone collection when it first became available.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Fluribus

Some people say that fantasy is useless. Science fiction is good because it might be true some day. Some people say that science fiction is useless because it's not true now. You should only read realistic modern fiction. Some people say that all fiction should be dumped because they're nothing but made-up stories about made-up people. Only non-fiction is worth anyone's time.

I disagree with all of those people.

Well said.

Anyone is certainly welcome to read only stuff they like; to tell other people, "you aren't allowed to read it because my opinion is that it's worthless"... well, that's a bit much...

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Geralt

I cant be bothered to write all the Frankenstein sources so if you're interested go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franken...ey.27s_sources

Also Golems, which isn't on that list. Perhaps Shelley wasn't inspired/aware of them, but that is if not a source then certainly a pre-existing and similar concept, going back a good thousand years.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Also Golems, which isn't on that list. Perhaps Shelley wasn't inspired/aware of them, but that is if not a source then certainly a pre-existing and similar concept, going back a good thousand years.

And there were legends about Vampires long before Bram Stoker wrote about the count. I've heard it goes back to at least Ancient Egypt if not further back.And what of the "Fairy Tales" that the Grimm Brothers preserved not to mention the tales of Hans Christian Anderson. His works are supposed to be original to him, but I wager he heard tales when he was a child that influenced the structure of his own tales later.

[fjtorres]

Andrew Lang's Fairy Books collect hundreds of older tales from all over.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre...;s_Fairy_Books

Tolkien's a johnny come lately.

[Nabeel]

There was definitely loads of fantasy writing before Tolkien. I agree with one previous post: T's strong point is his narrative style, not his ideas. (I've always had a sneaking suspicion that LOTR was far more shaped by the Second World War than anyone ever admits. And - while we're on the subject - why do the Orcs speak a variant of lower-class English?)

In terms of originality, Lewis Carroll gets my vote. Those texts really are complex philosophical-linguistic games, and a superb recreation of the child's bewilderment in the face of the crazy adult world. They can be read as simple stories for kiddies as well, but there's a lot more going on. I can remember - at the age of 6 - being quite terrified by 'Through the Looking-Glass': so terrified that I didn't get back to reading it again until years later.

Did Tolkien ever inspire John Lennon to write a surrealistic pop classic?

Last interesting fact: at one point it seemed likely that the Beatles would buy up the rights to LOTR. Lennon was to play Gollum, Harrison Gandalf, McCartney Frodo and Ringo Sam. But it was never to be... Lennon would have been a brilliant Gollum!!

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Nabeel

Did Tolkien ever inspire John Lennon to write a surrealistic pop classic?

He had to settle for a Led Zeppelin rock classic or two.

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by Nabeel

There was definitely loads of fantasy writing before Tolkien. I agree with one previous post: T's strong point is his narrative style, not his ideas. (I've always had a sneaking suspicion that LOTR was far more shaped by the Second World War than anyone ever admits. And - while we're on the subject - why do the Orcs speak a variant of lower-class English?)

In terms of originality, Lewis Carroll gets my vote. Those texts really are complex philosophical-linguistic games, and a superb recreation of the child's bewilderment in the face of the crazy adult world. They can be read as simple stories for kiddies as well, but there's a lot more going on. I can remember - at the age of 6 - being quite terrified by 'Through the Looking-Glass': so terrified that I didn't get back to reading it again until years later.

Did Tolkien ever inspire John Lennon to write a surrealistic pop classic?

Last interesting fact: at one point it seemed likely that the Beatles would buy up the rights to LOTR. Lennon was to play Gollum, Harrison Gandalf, McCartney Frodo and Ringo Sam. But it was never to be... Lennon would have been a brilliant Gollum!!

Actually, try World War One.
http://greenbooks.theonering.net/gue...040102_02.html

[Nabeel]

Okay, I'm persuaded by the article on Tolkein and World War One. The influences seem clear.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Nabeel

There was definitely loads of fantasy writing before Tolkien. I agree with one previous post: T's strong point is his narrative style, not his ideas. (I've always had a sneaking suspicion that LOTR was far more shaped by the Second World War than anyone ever admits. And - while we're on the subject - why do the Orcs speak a variant of lower-class English?)

As Phogg pointed out Tolkien was in WWI. He saw some action I don't doubt it probably had a profound effect on him. He likely saw brothers in arms (some of which might have been friends in college) killed. I think he might have been wounded as well. Certainly I remember him landing in hospital (according to his biography) due to disease which was also common place back then. And back when he was born (in 1892) there no doubt was still a great deal of class separation. The common man in the street spoke English one way and the upper class people spoke another form of English. So I can see how his orcs might reflect the grammar that the common man might speak as opposed to the more refined speech of higher classes (represented by such races as the elves). All you have to do is look at H.G. Well's novel "The Time Machine" to see how people thought the division between social classes might develop.