"Most e-books in The Netherlands are not paid for."

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

No-one has ever been prosecuted for using DRM removal software on music or ebooks.

One person has been prosecuted for creating DRM removal software for DVDs (and acquitted).

The big cases which involved civil suits, NOT criminal prosecutions, involved file sharing sites mainly for music back in the early 2000's.

Operators of those sites and many uploaders and downloaders did receive subpoenas for large sums of damages. Their names and addresses were traced by their IP address and internet providers who furnished the information.

Since then I haven't heard of any new cases like that other than this one from New Zealand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload

The only other big civil suit concerning eBooks was filed by the US Government against 5 publishers plus Apple for colluding to keep prices high. Amazon was NOT named as a defendant.

However, it should be noted that many sites discussing eBooks make sure not to show links to Apprentice Alf or allow discussion of DRM removal techniques. Obviously, there is some fear of civil consequences.

If a person has built a collection of 40,000 eBooks by downloading from a bit Torrent site, using Calibre to organize them and the Alf plugin to make them all readable on any eReader, he MAY be running some risk of a civil suit sometime in the future. I doubt if there would ever be any criminal prosecutions.

Here is a 2013 civil judgment where excessive civil damages were reduced for someone sharing music files:

http://www.iplawleaders.com/copyrigh...oaders-beware/

From that case: "The jury, again, found the defendant liable and awarded damages totaling over $1.9 million. The district court, stating that the award was “shocking,” remitted the damages to $54,000 and the record companies moved for a new trial solely on damages."

That women shared just a few songs and now has a BIG LEGAL problem.

Here is another quote from that link:

"The First Circuit affirmed judgment in favor of recording companies, holding that the statutory damage award of $675,000 for willfully infringing 30 copyrighted songs did not violate the defendant’s constitutional right to due process." That person shared just THIRTY songs!

Personally, I think the eBook problem is much more serious than the song problem and may involve much more money in potential damages.

[DaveCanRead]

Isn't Netherland's the place that dvd acs was first cracked eons ago?

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

If a person has built a collection of 40,000 eBooks by downloading from a bit Torrent site, using Calibre to organize them and the Alf plugin to make them all readable on any eReader, he MAY be running some risk of a civil suit sometime in the future. I doubt if there would ever be any criminal prosecutions.

No one who relies on torrented/pirated ebooks has any use for the Alf plugins. Calibre for collection organisation, sure, but people downloading books from pirate sites are not removing DRM - if there is any DRM removal done during the entire pirating process, it's only, and I mean ONLY, by the original uploader, before uploading.

DRM-d books are not torrented. It would be useless if they were since any DRM removal tools for ebooks can only be used on books you have bought/legally acquired yourself. If someone uploads a book with DRM intact, no one who downloads it can read it and they cannot remove DRM from it.

Someone who has downloaded 40,000 books by torrenting may well end up prosecuted some day (in theory anyway), even in locations where downloading is legal (since torrenting means uploading as well), but it's because they've participated in pirating 40,000 books and not because of using DRM removal tools on those books.

They cannot use DRM removal tools on those books even if they wanted to. They can only use DRM removal tools on books they have personally bought / personally legitimately acquired.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

If a person has built a collection of 40,000 eBooks by downloading from a bit Torrent site, using Calibre to organize them and the Alf plugin to make them all readable on any eReader, he MAY be running some risk of a civil suit sometime in the future. I doubt if there would ever be any criminal prosecutions.

It has been said before: this is not how Alf works.

Only the person buying the books can de-DRM them. If you buy a book and then give it to me, DRM and all, I can't do anything with it. This is because the book is encrypted with YOUR key, so Alf can't remove DRM using MY key.

Therefore, books in a Torrent have to be de-DRM'ed already, or they're useless.

[eschwartz]

And this has been explained to sirmaru before, so I bet he won't make this *mistake* again....

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's why I was asking. I'm pretty sure that it would be a violation of British copyright law: you can't buy an ebook under UK law and give a copy to someone else.

Who's saying a copy? I'm giving the book to my mother, and I put a copy of it in my mother's backup, which happens to be in my house...

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

The big cases which involved civil suits, NOT criminal prosecutions, involved file sharing sites mainly for music back in the early 2000's.

Operators of those sites and many uploaders and downloaders did receive subpoenas for large sums of damages. Their names and addresses were traced by their IP address and internet providers who furnished the information.

I wasn't distinguishing between civil and criminal prosecutions, but between DRM removal and unauthorised distribution. None of those cases you mention were about DRM removal, only about unauthorised distribution of copyright material.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

However, it should be noted that many sites discussing eBooks make sure not to show links to Apprentice Alf or allow discussion of DRM removal techniques. Obviously, there is some fear of civil consequences.

The law is unclear. Most sites (including MobileRead) don't wish to become a test case if some publisher decides to test whether publishing a link to DRM removal software is the same as distributing DRM software. Although given the laste EUCJ ruling, it's now even more uncertain whether non-commercial distribution of DRM removal software for ebooks is even a civil offence.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

If a person has built a collection of 40,000 eBooks by downloading from a bit Torrent site, using Calibre to organize them and the Alf plugin to make them all readable on any eReader,

Books downloaded from pirate sites DO NOT have DRM. If they did, Alf's DRM-removal tools still wouldn't help the would-be pirate, since that can only remove DRM for the original purchaser (the encryption key must be known, and it's only easily available to the original purchaser).


You are confusing two issues.

(1) removing DRM for personal use
(2) unauthorised distribution of copyright material

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

They cannot use DRM removal tools on those books even if they wanted to. They can only use DRM removal tools on books they have personally bought / personally legitimately acquired.

Here is the typical scenario:

1. The "collector" buys 10 eBooks from Amazon.
2. The "collector" uses the Alf Plugin for Calibre to strip the DRM from those 10 eBooks.
3. The "collector" then goes to a bit Torrent site and uses those 10 stripped eBooks as his starter upload contribution and ends up with 40,000 eBooks.
4. Then Calibre is used to organize that "Collection" since it is too large to control manually.

The legitimate buyer relies on Amazon to maintain a large collection of millions of eBooks and just buys one or two at a time to actually read those eBooks. Since the legitimate buyer rarely has collections that large, no Collecting software other than the one supplied by Amazon is really necessary.

The situation is way out of control and the authors, publishers and retailers need some solution to prevent these huge violations of copyright laws.

Instead of using the courts, there is one more way Amazon could stop all this. They already are allowed access to a customer's eBooks whenever they are synced to their servers. That sync could allow Amazon to determine if any DRM stripped eBooks are on the customer's disks. If they find any, they could simply block that particular customer's account rendering all readers purchased from them as useless. Apple and Kobo probably have the same ability and, if the three sellers coordinated, copyright theft could be severely impeded.

All three of those sellers already "push" software upgrades to their customers. That "push" could also be used to detect eBook files not properly purchased on those eReaders. Inserting license numbers in the metadata, like Amazon does now with song files, could ease the detection process.

There was a case several years ago whereby one eBook being sold by Amazon was determined to be not available since the publisher never authorized Amazon to sell it. Amazon then deleted that eBook from ALL their customer devices without notice to the customers. That event demonstrates their level of control if required to use it.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Here is the typical scenario:

1. The "collector" buys 10 eBooks from Amazon.
2. The "collector" uses the Alf Plugin for Calibre to strip the DRM from those 10 eBooks.
3. The "collector" then goes to a bit Torrent site and uses those 10 stripped eBooks as his starter upload contribution and ends up with 40,000 eBooks.
4. Then Calibre is used to organize that "Collection" since it is too large to control manually.

It is more typical that the pirate doesn't bother to strip DRM, but simply downloads books from pirate sites.

The legitimate buyer relies on Amazon to maintain a large collection of millions of eBooks and just buys one or two at a time to actually read those eBooks. Since the legitimate buyer rarely has collections that large, no Collecting software other than the one supplied by Amazon is really necessary.

I find Amazon's cloud storage rather clumsy.

Instead of using the courts, there is one more way Amazon could stop all this. They already are allowed access to a customer's eBooks whenever they are synced to their servers. That sync could allow Amazon to determine if any DRM stripped eBooks are on the customer's disks. If they find any, they could simply block that particular customer's account rendering all readers purchased from them as useless. Apple and Kobo probably have the same ability and, if the three sellers coordinated, copyright theft could be severely impeded.

Or the pirates simply turn off WiFi, and Amazon would never know about their pirated books. Or they make simple alterations to the book so that Amazon can't identify the book. If they can't identify the book, they can't determine if it ever had DRM in the first place. Or they don't use Amazon at all, just an e-book app on a tablet. If someone isn't buying books, what do they need Amazon for anyway? Your proposal wouldn't hinder pirates at all.

There was a case several years ago whereby one eBook being sold by Amazon was determined to be not available since the publisher never authorized Amazon to sell it. Amazon then deleted that eBook from ALL their customer devices without notice to the customers. That event demonstrates their level of control if required to use it.

Amazon can do that if they want to have a going out of business sale. The resulting firestorm was huge - Amazon had to placate its customers by promising not to do it again. Perhaps Amazon is dominant enough to withstand the firestorm if they try it again, but they would certainly lose some customers.

[Terisa de morgan]

Deleted

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

3. The "collector" then goes to a bit Torrent site and uses those 10 stripped eBooks as his starter upload contribution and ends up with 40,000 eBooks.

Are you under the impression that someone has to upload files first in order to download torrents?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Personally, I think the eBook problem is much more serious than the song problem and may involve much more money in potential damages.

Why I wonder. Do you think more people read than listen to music? Almost everyone I know listens to music, and I am sure that is not the case for reading. I see less than 10% of people on the bus (more like 1%) reading electronically and dozens with earphones in their ears.

A book typically costs more than a song, but many people who consider them selves prolific readers read a book a week or a month, where people who are big into music, often listen to 100+ songs a day.

Of course with both one can legally read or listen for free or for a miniscule cost, no need to pirate, but piracy is often more convenient and gives instant gratification.

Some people may have 40,000 ebooks, but even 20 years ago I knew people who had a lot more music.

Helen

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Some people may have 40,000 ebooks, but even 20 years ago I knew people who had a lot more music.

40.000 songs is a huge number of songs to own legally.

I have finished ripping all of my CD's a few weeks ago, and have not acquired any new ones since. My Foobar (the music manager I use) says that I have 10,649 songs, in 716 albums (where one album can have more than one CD's: one of my classical music "albums" is actually a box of 40 CD's; I also own quite Jazz/Blues/Soul albums/box sets that have 10 CD's each).

Foobar says it would take 4 weeks, 5 days, 16 hours, and 47 seconds to play each of my songs ONCE.

It means that owning 40.000 songs would equate owning 2,736 albums. (Which means that one owns at least that many CD's / LP's, as an album can have multiple discs.)

That's a lot of music...

Granted, I've just been reading "for myself" for 13 years (before, it was all required reading for school and college; having to read 25 books in Dutch and 25 in English atop the normal text books was quite enough) and I have been re-reading a lot, while I have been collecting CD's for over 20 years. (Acquiring them went extremely fast in the last 4-5 years though, when I started shopping abroad and discovered Amazon's second-hand marketplace.)

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Are you under the impression that someone has to upload files first in order to download torrents?

He seems to be confusing the minority of exclusive-club torrent sites with the mainstream, which is exactly the kind of reasoning that is to be expected of someone who has repeatedly claimed in this thread alone that all users of Alf and/or calibre are most likely pirates, because only pirates have more than three or four books at a time

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Here is the typical scenario:

1. The "collector" buys 10 eBooks from Amazon.
2. The "collector" uses the Alf Plugin for Calibre to strip the DRM from those 10 eBooks.
3. The "collector" then goes to a bit Torrent site and uses those 10 stripped eBooks as his starter upload contribution and ends up with 40,000 eBooks.
4. Then Calibre is used to organize that "Collection" since it is too large to control manually.

You are living in a world of your imagination.