Smashwords Succumbs to Censorship

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

So, Paypal should have to provide services for anything and everything?

I disagree. Just as a company can decide what to put on their shelves, Paypal has a right to not provide payment services to a site that provides content they object to. They are not saying that you can't buy what you want, they are saying that they have a right to deny service to something they find objectionable.

First of all, kudos to making me laugh at the suggestion bankers have any sense of morality.

Second, we're not talking about a store selling what it wants to sell. We're talking about a bank deciding who does and does not get to be in business. and it's not like there's a competitor you can move to either. Suppose, for example, you work for a bar, and go to deposit your money in your local bank. Your bank looks at where you work and says "No. I object to alcohol and won't allow any business here from anyone associated with such an enterprise." And yet, it's the only bank in town. So this banker has just decided you don't get to have banking services. Furthermore, he's also decided the bar can't have banking services, and thus will probably not be able to stay in business. Do you want the bank making those decisions? Do you want faceless bankers in a far off state or even country making decisions on what legal material you get to read, or what gets sold?

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by Phogg

No, it is not your right to decide what you buy with your monery.

That is my perogative and mine alone DuskyRose.

Just as you arbitrarily decided payment companies don't have the right to set standards their customers must meet, so I am over ruling your right to decide what to do with your money.

You will now turn over all of your money and I shall invest it for you entirely in a vintage Beanie Baby collection.

After all only certain people have rights and others don't.

Obviousely the sole detirminer of which is which must be me.

Except Paypal has essentially just abrogated that right for itself. It's decided it will be the moral arbiter of what you get to read, of what gets published, of what gets bought and sold, not just in America but around the world. As a virtual monopoly, it gets to impose its hard-right Christian beliefs on everyone else everywhere. And if you think it won't expand its definition of 'forbidden' material you're kidding yourself. Censors always start on the outside, then work their way in, step by step.

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Sounds like this decision originated with Paypal/Ebay's legal department. The prohibited subjects are probably illegal in some jurisdictions worldwide. Paypal being a worldwide company didn't want to involve itself in the transaction.

Or as being the payment processor some may feel Paypal profits from, condones or encourages the sale of such material. It may be an image they wish to avoid.

Do you want what you read to be decided based on what might be prohibited in some other country? Saudi Arabia perhaps?

Illegal subjects? Most fiction contains illegal subjects. Heck, ever see a slasher movie? Ever read their literary equivalents? Why is it the fundamentalist bluenose types never seem to object much to horrific violence being lovingly created on film or in writing, but when it comes to sex they go ballistic?

And where is 'pseudo incest' between adults illegal anyway?

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Never mind censorship: this is a service provider telling their *customers* how to run their business.
Everybody doing business with Paypal is now at risk of ebay telling them what they can or cannot sell. Viagra. Condoms. Yeast infection meds. What nnext? Who they can or cannot hire?

I'm thinking Google payments and (yes) AMAZON Payments are licking their chops.

Ultimately, they all are merely processors who have to obey the dictates of Visa and Mastercard. And it is the two credit card companies which have been behind the crackdown on adult material. So you will not find google or amazon stepping up to take paypal's place in providing services for erotica (which to a conservative means porn).

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

thats pretty much the size of it. they're a business and can run it as they see fit. its only censorship if its an act of government or law prohibiting it.

Of course it's censorship. You think only governments an impose censorship? Anyone with power can do it.

[DiapDealer]

...and cue the politics and religion warning.

I mostly agree with you JJ (as do a few of the people you appear to be arguing with), but... multi-quote?

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by JJArgus

Ultimately, they all are merely processors who have to obey the dictates of Visa and Mastercard. And it is the two credit card companies which have been behind the crackdown on adult material. So you will not find google or amazon stepping up to take paypal's place in providing services for erotica (which to a conservative means porn).

I'm doubting that Visa or mastercard give a rat's butt about content. They're interested in PROFITS and porn is huge business. If you can go online and buy porn...with a mastercard/visa... you want me to believe that they have an issue with the written word?

I call shenanigans.


ETA: Dear Author has a lot of additional detail reagarding the companies hit by Paypal. She also mentions that

Paypal’s founder is a libertarian and conservative Christian and I only bring this up because some people are curious about Paypal’s political leanings.

Oh, should I also mention that he thinks that women should not be allowed to vote?

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by JJArgus

Second, we're not talking about a store selling what it wants to sell. We're talking about a bank deciding who does and does not get to be in business. and it's not like there's a competitor you can move to either.

Yes there are. There are other online payment processors than PayPal.

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Wait. Smashwords is allowed to refuse to do business according to its own set of standards, but PayPal isn't?

Smashwords previously set very minimal standards, mostly dealing with illegal material such as underage sex. And Smashwords is the retailer. It does get to decide what it sells. Paypal and the CC companies are mostly monopolistic money processors and as long as what their customers sell is legal they should keep their noses out of it. You might not like strip clubs, for example, but do you think the phone company and power company should be able to refuse to provide services on moral grounds?

Do you want corporations deciding what is morally acceptable for you to read?

Think of it this way. I have a legal product I want to sell. There are numerous customers who want to purchase it. Smashwords is willing to sell it to them. Then along comes a banker in a country halfway around the world wagging his finger and saying "No, no! That's icky! I refuse to allow this material to be sold!" Now if there is some other, less prudish banker you just switch, but what if there isn't any? Then the banker takes charge of what legal material can and cannot be sold throughout the world.

Has the banking industry ever done anything that leads you to believe they should be entrusted with that kind of power and responsibility?

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by JJArgus

Has the banking industry ever done anything that leads you to believe they should be entrusted with that kind of power and responsibility?

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by JJArgus

Smashwords previously set very minimal standards, mostly dealing with illegal material such as underage sex. And Smashwords is the retailer. It does get to decide what it sells. Paypal and the CC companies are mostly monopolistic money processors and as long as what their customers sell is legal they should keep their noses out of it. You might not like strip clubs, for example, but do you think the phone company and power company should be able to refuse to provide services on moral grounds?

The (fixed-line) phone company and power company are public utilities, with local monopolies. They do not have the same freedom to reject customers that other businesses would have.

[Whackatagin]

Try processing payment for trade in anything that is "inappropriate" or "illegal" via a conventional bank and you will have the authorities banging on your front door without warning. Paypal is intitle to have it's own standards, much as the big banks have. If its standards vary from Smashwords, then sobeit.

Smashwords is a very automated process, perhaps Paypal are just the people to draw their attention to the fact that they should employ a better screening process than key word searches. It's not about censorship, it's about crossing a line, and everyone is entitled to their own oppinion on where that line is, especially in business.

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by bgalbrecht

So does this mean than Smashwords will have to crack down on all that paranormal romance involving werewolves? And did Paypal send similar letters to Amazon and B&N, since they sell some or all Smashword titles? When I click through the Amazon free ebook list at eReaderIQ.com, I notice a fair number of erotica stories had mommy/daddy/daughter in the title, which I assume indicate they are violating Paypal's incest policy.

Re Werewolves. Yes. Furry sex is now against the rules. Werewolves can have sex but they have to be in human form.

Re Amazon. Amazon does not are much what Paypal says. Amazon and Ebay are rivals, and Ebay is the parent company of Paypal. That's why you can't use paypal to buy products on amazon.

Amazon does not allow incest themed erotica either. Though it hasn't gone so far as to outlaw 'pseudo incest' yet. If there are some books there they slipped in and will be removed eventually as the Amazon censors come across them.

[Redcard]

Paypal's founder is irrelevant. (And really, paypal has about 5 founders, and a VenCap firm that founded them.) They are now owned by Ebay.

And the fact is, they are NOT a financial institution per US banking rules, they are an "e-commerce solution licensed as a money transmitter in many US states that require licensing." The money from paypal users is kept in commercial interest bearing checking accounts at major banks.

That's an important distinction, because as a not-bank, they are subject to certain rules themselves from the banks the money is in, the state laws at places where the money is stored, and the agreement terms they make with banks/real financial institutions they deal with.

[JJArgus]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

LOL Good point Catlady.

Two of the three subject matters are illegal most likely everywhere, and the third is just icky!
They are not going after main stream Paranormal/erotica/romance just the illegal ones.

There is nothing illegal about writing a fictional story about adult incest, or 'pseudo incest', nor about rape or bestiality.

Interestingly, if you research womens top sexual fantasies, you'll find that among them is rape, incest, and bestiality. These are FANTASIES. I wonder what fantasies you have others would find 'icky' or 'gross'. People have a right to their sexual fantasies, and I really don't see where it's anyone's business trying to stop authors from putting LEGAL books up on willing retailers shelves to sell to interested buyers.