Penguin ends library/Overdrive relationship starting tomorrow

[LuvReadin]

Originally Posted by dkperez

>Does anyone have real numbers on the way ebooks are being priced to libraries? In conversation, I was cited one instance by a librarian where a hard cover book was $24 while the corresponding ebook was $85. I can't say with certainty that it was Overdrive pocketing the extra 350 percent, but I find it difficult to believe.

In the UK at least, it's partly due to the fact that ebooks attract VAT at 20%, whereas pbooks don't, a situation I find utterly appalling. As I mentioned on another thread, journal publishers generally offer at least 10% off for subscribers choosing digital only, and I don't think the same VAT rules apply there. I don't know whether Overdrive is coining it in to the extent you mention above, but it certainly shouldn't be such a big problem, not with the trail already having been blazed by journals.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by dkperez

>
As far as the "you can only lend the ebook 26 times before paying again", again in conversation with the librarians, I was told they have books that were well bound and have been leant over 200 times and are still in very good condition.

I've not only been told that, but I have experienced that. I've gotten to recognize which copy of a book I've re-borrowed by familiar smudge marks, coffee drips, dog ears, pencil scribbles, etc. I've been using the same library now since 1995, and one popular book I had borrowed for over a ten year period and had constantly put myself on a revolving hold list. And it was clearly not "new" when I arrived on the scene. I had borrowed that exact copy at least a dozen times. And it was NOT a "well bound hardcover". It was a paperback.

So I exercised some serious diaphragm muscles laughing very hard when I first read Harper Collins excuse for their gouging license, of "Treat an e-book like a printed book". 26 times, my arse! I've become so familiar with some copies of books that are still in the library since at least the early 90s and have had way more than 26 loans per title that exists.

So if they are going to pretend an e-book is just like a paper book, they should get it in line with more like reality. But what do I know about business.... I just read books.

[azazel1024]

Originally Posted by dkperez

>And, (I have no idea whether it's Overdrive or publishers doing) the prices
>for ebooks is significantly HIGHER than the library pays for hard cover books.

>I doubt it's the publishers; again, referring to the already established model
>for journals, there's usually at least a 10% discount for anyone choosing to
>take an e-version only, even though these are also produced as print >versions.

Does anyone have real numbers on the way ebooks are being priced to libraries? In conversation, I was cited one instance by a librarian where a hard cover book was $24 while the corresponding ebook was $85. I can't say with certainty that it was Overdrive pocketing the extra 350 percent, but I find it difficult to believe.

As far as the "you can only lend the ebook 26 times before paying again", again in conversation with the librarians, I was told they have books that were well bound and have been leant over 200 times and are still in very good condition. On the other hand, the most recent Harry Potter was apparently so poorly constructed that it did, indeed, fall apart within 30 loans. I also presume the reading demographic may have been very different between the two books, causing much of the additional damage to poor Harry!

Like some others here, I'm a heavy library user. Primarily because I read for pleasure (when I'm not having to wade through some computer or photography text), and go through 3 - 4 books per week. I often try a new, questionable author's first book in a series at the library, and if it like it, I buy thereafter. Did it with Patricia Cornwell, Jonathon Kellerman, James Patterson, and on and on. With the current actions by the publishers, I've changed my purchasing habits a lot, and I'm buying far more discount books, finding free books, and using MR to find freebies and ESPECIALLY using the library to reserve books on paper instead of buying them. I don't care if I'm number 207 of 250 waiting, I'll wait six months instead of purchasing the book.

So, they may not care, but the actions of these publishers is saving me several thousand dollars per year. And lightening their bottom line by an equivalent amount.

300 loans can be on the low end for a well bound adult fiction hardcover book. Granted this was a university library, but I worked for a couple of years at the Penn State main campus University library when I was a student there. Look at loan cards and a handful or records, there were plenty of books we had loaned out well over a thousand times and were still in fine condition. Plenty of books we had on the shelves in the collections were from the late 1800's and were in rough, but acceptable condition that based on only the ELECTRONIC loan information got loaned out roughly half a dozen times a year over their life (only since electronic records were kept). Take that back to the date of printing and how long it had been in the collection, that is pushing a thousand loans and over a century and the book was still going strong.

Granted, we also had books that sometimes only lasted a couple of dozen loans before some student fell asleep studying and knocked coffee all over the book or something else "stupid" that destroyed the book.

The average life of even a paperback book tends to be more than 50 loans however and hardbacks tend to be over 200 loans in most cases. So artificially limiting to 26 loans is incredibly stupid.

I agree with transactional royalities on ebook lending, but I also think it needs to be darned reasonable. Figure out what the replacement price would be on paper book. Then charge a fractional royalty per loan based on a 100-200 loan replacement cost, and to me that would still be gouging a bit.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by dkperez

Does anyone have real numbers on the way ebooks are being priced to libraries? In conversation, I was cited one instance by a librarian where a hard cover book was $24 while the corresponding ebook was $85. I can't say with certainty that it was Overdrive pocketing the extra 350 percent, but I find it difficult to believe.

As I said before, I've been donating $100 a month to my library for going on 7 months now. I send a wish list and they send back what they bought and the the individual prices of each. The Overdrive price for the books for the library is ALMOST ALWAYS (90% of the time) several dollars more.

In some cases, it's been double. I don't think OD is pocketing the difference; I think the publisher is.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

In some cases, it's been double. I don't think OD is pocketing the difference; I think the publisher is.

I think so too. They know that library books will be read by more than one person, so charging more is a way to offset the loss of multiple sales for that book.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by azazel1024

Granted, we also had books that sometimes only lasted a couple of dozen loans before some student fell asleep studying and knocked coffee all over the book or something else "stupid" that destroyed the book.

I never damaged a library book, but as far as I know if the book was lost or damaged beyond use the one who borrowed it was buying a new copy for the library.

[pidgeon92]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I never damaged a library book, but as far as I know if the book was lost or damaged beyond use the one who borrowed it was buying a new copy for the library.

Yep, that's me. When my dog was still very young, she would eat everything she got her snout on. I had to replace two library books that she chewed on.

The first time I bought the book from Amazon and gave it to them, and they charged me an additional $5 to prep it. The second time I just gave them the cash and they replaced it.

[Sil_liS]

This situation makes the price of the new book to be paid by the reader, not the library. With ebooks with a limited life the price is paid by the library.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

This situation makes the price of the new book to be paid by the reader, not the library. With ebooks with a limited life the price is paid by the library.

You know. That's a great point that I never considered. Most books are read much more than 26 times...and if the book is damaged beyond wear and tear the cost is assumed by the person who did the damage.

[spindlegirl]

When my children were little and we borrowed books I had to be on them like white on rice - they were hard on books. That having been said, even the books we *owned* lasted a while longer than one would expect with a 5-children household.

Publishers must think the people they are selling books to (or should I say, not selling) have never handled physical books in their normal day to day lives, or lived with people who are hard on books. Do they only hope to sell to people who were born after 2001?

I have some books that I have had and used since I was in grade school that I still read and use. I've lived long enough to do considerable damage to books. With the exception of extraordinary circumstances, in my 40+ years of book ownership, I'm finding the 26 loan thing extremely hard to swallow just based on my personal experience alone.

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

Do they only hope to sell to people who were born after 2001?

Pretty much. Publishers have been trying to change how people buy books for
decades. Tactics that publishers have used in the past include: selling workbooks
to schools. Publishers love these because it's one per student and they cannot be
reused. A rather popular theme at the university level are books that contain
online assessment. Once again, it's one per student and they cannot be reused.

In the case of fiction, publishers couldn't really do much about it until ebooks
arrived but now that they have arrived their dreams are full of dollar signs.

Of course, they are also trying to change attitudes as well as buying habits.
People would have died laughing if you told them that they couldn't resell a book 10
years ago because you owned a book. All of a sudden, people are claiming that it is
unethical to resell or lend books because authors don't get re-compensated. Uh,
authors were never compensated per reader. They were compensated per copy. That's
because they owned the *copy*rights while the reader/library owned the actual copy.

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Pretty much. Publishers have been trying to change how people buy books for
decades. Tactics that publishers have used in the past include: selling workbooks
to schools. Publishers love these because it's one per student and they cannot be
reused. A rather popular theme at the university level are books that contain
online assessment. Once again, it's one per student and they cannot be reused.

In the case of fiction, publishers couldn't really do much about it until ebooks
arrived but now that they have arrived their dreams are full of dollar signs.

Of course, they are also trying to change attitudes as well as buying habits.
People would have died laughing if you told them that they couldn't resell a book 10
years ago because you owned a book. All of a sudden, people are claiming that it is
unethical to resell or lend books because authors don't get re-compensated. Uh,
authors were never compensated per reader. They were compensated per copy. That's
because they owned the *copy*rights while the reader/library owned the actual copy.

I am continually amazed at how many people believe in the pay-per-read scam. Karma inbound...

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

People would have died laughing if you told them that they couldn't resell a book 10
years ago because you owned a book.

It was about that long, well almost, ... more like 8 years ago when I first read about the horror over people buying used books. I used to think of it as quaint and charming.

Like in the movies, a girl walking into a second hand dusty book store and talking to the old proprietor and making a friend, and spending her allowance there.... presented in a charming, whimsical, Norman Rockwell Painting manner....

I first encountered seeing this when I joined bookcrossing. I was fascinated with the world being one "giant large library", where people found a (physical) book, read a book, passed it on, posted about the book they found and where they wound up passing it on. Almost like postcard tracking, or an ongoing journal around the world that gets passed around from person to person.

It never dawned on me that authors and publishers might be infurated at the idea. It never dawned on me that it was considered morally wrong to give books second hand or buy them second hand. I was often broke and that was often my default quick last minute present: A friend who saw me LOVING "Confessions of a Shopaholic", and wanted it, so boom, instant birthday present for her. I was done with it so why not? (it also made the gift more personal)

It didn't dawn on me that there was ever a case where Reduce, Reuse, Recycle was bad!

[Sydney's Mom]

I thought the concept of friction was interesting. It isn't so much that the publishers are worried about piracy - they are worried that we will do what we do - fill up our holds list, and read something else while we wait. And that is all about friction, or lack thereof. But frankly, I don't think ebooks are any worse than reserving books. Last night I was driving home, and a train was coming. So I turned around, and parked in front of the library, and went in to pick up the book I had put on hold last week. When I came out, the train was just pulling through the intersection, and so I turned around and made it home, no more than 30 seconds later than I would have. And the book is brand new. (Heft by Liz Moore)

Unfortuntely, as people read less and less, the purchasers that publishers lose to libraries mean more and more. And the ease with which we can now use libraries, whether it is by ebooks or reserving books, means a group of dedicated readers has dropped out of the book buying market. I used to buy amost $1000 of books a year, in groups of $50. Now, I get all the paperback books from the library (or the Harlequin 5 cent sale), and reserve the bestseller hard covers I can't wait for. And frankly, the actions of the publishers over the last year or so has left a really, really bad taste in my mouth. I used to think they were part of the holy grail that delivered books to me. But now, reading a large number of self-published books that are darn good and finding library ebooks and reserved books, I think it will be a long, long time before I ever go into a book store again. I have the New York Times Bestseller List in front of me, and go on line and reserve what I want.

[spindlegirl]

The thing is, I doubt I will ever spend as much as I did in the years when I was building up my "foundational" collection. If I have amassed a collection of over 300 favorite paperbacks sitting in my house, why would I bother buying a bookshelf and storing them if I didn't plan to use them again? we're just one household, not a multinational corporation.

The fact that I actually HAVE so many books, most of which I love and am addicted to, means that progressively over time I'll be buying less and less. People's buying habits fluctuate according to their budget and desire to amass stuff.

At least for me, anyway.

Much like if one year I am buying a dozen sweaters for myself, I don't need to buy that many for myself the next year, if any. I have clothes.

I tend to think too functionally for my own good I think.