Will Kobo, Nook and Amazon Touch kill Sony?

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

Oh, my. You would probably try to argue that a Ferrari should cost less than a Ford truck because they needed less steel to build it.

That's a facile argument. There are many differences between a Ford truck and a Ferrari that actually result in a higher production cost. I challenge you to show me what parts in the Sony readers are soooooooooooo much more expensive than the competition to make them close to twice the price. Go on, show me the figures, not just make silly pot-shots.

What I WILL say about someone who buys a Ferrari-- "a sucker is born every minute" and "a fool and his money are soon parted."

If cost of material were the decisive point then none of these readers should cost more than a couple of €.

I'm not claiming that there aren't real costs involved in producing the readers (and much more than "a couple of €s." I'm saying that using the choice of a case that MIGHT add 50 cents to the cost of production as an excuse to add 50 bucks to the retail price of the item is silly.

This isn't about entrenched Sony loyalists picking up their 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th Sony-- those aren't the people who will determine future market survival. Since the majority of people who could buy an ebook reader haven't bought one yet, this is about the brand-agnostic first time buyers who are the main target of ebook sellers. And I simply do not believe that if there continues to be a huge percentage price premium for Sony readers Sony readers will survive in the marketplace. Using only myself as an example, I would never have been a Sony buyer if Sony wasn't the cheapest thing available when I was buying. If I was buying my first ebook reader today-- it would be something else (but not a Kindle-- I've always hated that keyboard.)

[Pomtroll]

I like my Sony 350. I like the size & I love the touch screen. Would I have bought it if the new Nook had come out 5 months ago? Probably not because I liked my Nook Classic. BUT it didn't have a full touch screen & that is what I decided I preferred.

Do I think Sony products are better than the Nook? I have no idea. My Nook is a year old & still runs beautifully & has no cracks. I have had more problems with my Kindle than my Nook. It seems to crash more when I do extended searches & some of the letters on my keys are wearing off.

So I'm one of the consumers that just wants a device that works well for what I want to do. Read. I do not know about Kobos, but I am curious how well the new Touch will do. I'm not in the market for another device, but I certainly can drool over new devices...And who knows I may end up trying another reader...But only if I can convince my hubby that 4 readers are a must.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by elemenoP

The hardware specs on the new Nook and Kobo are the same as the current Sonys: Pearl E-ink Screen, Neonode IR touch. The processors may be different but they let's assume they are all "pretty fast." The Nook and Kobo have a wireless transmitter inside, the 650 does not.

So in what way are the Nook and Kobo devices more cheaply built? Because they have a plastic bezel instead of aluminum? How much of a price difference do you think that is, in terms of the parts? Aluminum costs more than a wireless transmitter?

eP

I imagine that some sort of licensing fees for the included dictionaries (12 of them, mostly Oxford and Collins) might add to the price.

[Ripplinger]

I took a good look at the new Kobo and as much as I absolutely love my 350, I'd consider it over a 650 when my current reader dies (hopefully not for a long time). It's a bit smaller than the 650, and I like the way it tracks your reading. Wi-Fi and expansion slot, neither of which I care about having for my use, would be icing. It would depend of course on a real hand's on look at it, if the build is solid and the touch screen is as responsive as the Sony's, speed of the unit, and the pricing of both units when the time comes.

I agree Sony's are priced too high normally, but if you're patient and wait for a sale like I did, $110 or $120 for the 350 is very reasonable to me and makes the price a non-issue.

I'm hoping my 350 lasts for a long long time though before I need to seriously look again.

[Anarel]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I just hope that Kindle for reader (ereader is incorrect) dies out as people realize that there are more devices and better devices then the Kindle. If the K4 drops the keyboard for Touch and uses ADE, then maybe Amazon can take over. But without, no way.

Jesus Christ, that was harsh. I love my Kindle and want it to do well, but I don't want YOUR Sony to DIE in a pool of its own blood... err, e-ink.

Of COURSE there are more devices than the Kindle out there, but "better" is a relative concept, Serrah. Do you just hate the hype over the Kindle, that is has become synonymous with the sight of an e-reader, at least in the US? I think the any Kindle 3 is better than a Sony Pocket reader but if someone wants to take bare-bones to a whole new level than for them, the Sony is a better device for them.

If ADE was so bloody important to the Kindle's continued existence in the face of nearly every competitor using it, then Amazon would have either- made the Kindle use ADE or have simply bowed in defeat.

Seeing as neither of those two things have happened....

[AlbertaCowboy]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Also, I think there is an element of justification/fanboyism involved.

Whatever other argument one might suggest, I think that there is a large amount of truth in this statement.
I would have bought a Kindle when I first found out about eink and eReaders if it were only available here in Canada. Kindle was the big one, hyped by Oprah. I wanted one in the worst way. Unfortunately, not available here. As I scoured the internet looking for a way to get one, I found Sony's eReader (the PRS-505) just at that moment being made available in Canada. I couldn't wait to drop 300 bucks on the thing as soon as I got back from Mordor, er I mean Fort McMurray. Since then, the Kobo, Kindle, Aluratek and iPads have become available. I don't want any of those. I want a Sony. I love my Sony. I will happily pay twice as much for a Sony as I would for a Kobo. Why? I guess because of a little misplaced consumer loyalty, coupled with a bit of fanboy elitism and wrapped up in a nice comfort zone. I like how my Sony does collections. I like the silver aluminum chassis. I like the interface. I like my Sony. Maybe a little irrational, but I likes what I likes.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by AlbertaCowboy

Whatever other argument one might suggest, I think that there is a large amount of truth in this statement.
I would have bought a Kindle when I first found out about eink and eReaders if it were only available here in Canada. Kindle was the big one, hyped by Oprah. I wanted one in the worst way. Unfortunately, not available here. As I scoured the internet looking for a way to get one, I found Sony's eReader (the PRS-505) just at that moment being made available in Canada. I couldn't wait to drop 300 bucks on the thing as soon as I got back from Mordor, er I mean Fort McMurray. Since then, the Kobo, Kindle, Aluratek and iPads have become available. I don't want any of those. I want a Sony. I love my Sony. I will happily pay twice as much for a Sony as I would for a Kobo. Why? I guess because of a little misplaced consumer loyalty, coupled with a bit of fanboy elitism and wrapped up in a nice comfort zone. I like how my Sony does collections. I like the silver aluminum chassis. I like the interface. I like my Sony. Maybe a little irrational, but I likes what I likes.

I got my Sony 505 before any other eink readers were available in Canada (to the extent of my knowledge). If I were a first time buyer, I would probably consider other devices (especially the Kobo), but now I've got a little misplaced consumer loyalty myself, I love the aluminum chassis, the interface, the PDF reflow (I know that some aren't pleased with the results of reflow, but it has been a lifesaver for me many times) and now the foreign dictionaries as well, so I understand how you feel.

However, if I were buying now for the first time, I think I would maybe go for the Kobo. Now that I'm used to my Sony, however, the lack of PDF reflow (as far as I know) and the lack of foreign dictionaries on the Kobo would likely be a deal breaker for me, but if I had never had them on a device before, I might not consider them to be important features.

[CommonReader]

The dictionaries (German, French,Spanish) were an argument for me to get the 650 even though I was already quite happy with the 300. They are very good and the way they are integrated into the system is extremely neat.
Obviously they don't add any value, though, has they are not made of solid material that can be measured by the ton. Many people probably consider them to be inferior to some naff facebook functionalities as well.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

Obviously they don't add any value, though, has they are not made of solid material that can be measured by the ton. Many people probably consider them to be inferior to some naff facebook functionalities as well.

You can toss as many simplistic, snarky straw-man mischaracterizations as you like against my statements, it won't bother me. I'm sure that most everyone reading the messages here are intelligent enough to discern that I'm not saying what you are trying to put into my mouth, even if you aren't.

Also, you can bookmark this page now-- by the end of the year 2012 (giving them one year to ramp up-- it might be too late with this year's model) Sony will either have brought their readers into parity with the prices of their competition-- or will have dropped out of the market. The will not survive at significantly higher prices.

[CommonReader]

Well, you were telling us extensively about the value of aluminium, as if it were of any relevance. Perhaps other readers are more perceptive as to what you wanted to tell us.
As any other war, price wars have the unfortunate habit to kill some of those who wage it. We will see who will be left standing at the end of it.
In the end I don't particularly care if Sony pulls out of the North American market or not, as long as they continue to sell their readers here in Europe and don't cheapen the way they make them.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Anarel

Jesus Christ, that was harsh. I love my Kindle and want it to do well, but I don't want YOUR Sony to DIE in a pool of its own blood... err, e-ink.

Of COURSE there are more devices than the Kindle out there, but "better" is a relative concept, Serrah. Do you just hate the hype over the Kindle, that is has become synonymous with the sight of an e-reader, at least in the US? I think the any Kindle 3 is better than a Sony Pocket reader but if someone wants to take bare-bones to a whole new level than for them, the Sony is a better device for them.

If ADE was so bloody important to the Kindle's continued existence in the face of nearly every competitor using it, then Amazon would have either- made the Kindle use ADE or have simply bowed in defeat.

Seeing as neither of those two things have happened....

We know people want DRM removed. We know people want to be able to buy eBooks from any store selling them. The only way for this to happen is for Amazon to abandon Mobipocket and move to ePub. We have too many other readers using ADE to get them to go Mobipocket. Besides, it's Mobipocket format that's the more obsolete format. So if we had ePub across the board, then we could work on getting DRM removed. Amazon is the hold-out in the format. We had a tower of e-bable that's basically dropped to just about two formats. If Amazon would modernize, we'd be down to one format. I'm not saying Amazon should go away. I'm saying that if Amazon added ADE, it would make life so much easier especially if AZW/Mobipocket would go away.

As I see it, the new nook Touch & Kobo Touch are going to ket into Amazon's sales as you'll get a better reading experience from the touch screen (IMHO). I prefer swiping to button pushing.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

Well, you were telling us extensively about the value of aluminium, as if it were of any relevance.

The relevance is that an aluminum casing is an excuse for a higher price, not a reason for a higher price.

Using a component or a feature that increases the production cost of a product by 45 dollars is a reason to charge a $50 premium over the competition. Using a component or feature that increases the production cost of a product by 45 cents in an excuse to charge a $50 premium over the competition. Paying a large premium for a feature that actually costs a large premium to implement is reasonable-- paying a large premium for a feature that adds very little to the production cost but makes the item more "fashionable," IMHO, is douchebaggery.

[rhadin]

I can't tell you whether the Sony higher price is justifiable any more than I can tell you that Kobo and B&N are NOT taking significant losses on their devices. It is not enough to say that because XYZ can sell a similar -- or even identical -- item for $abc that $abc is clearly the correct price. It just ain't so.

One need go no further than recalling Amazon's selling of ebook "bestsellers" for $9.99. Amazon may well have thought that $9.99 is the ideal price for such books, but the fact is that Amazon was selling ebooks at that price at a loss. Consequently, it is difficult to argue that $9.99 is the price that every bookseller should charge as not every bookseller can absorb the loss by selling another TV at a profit.

Sony's income is largely hardware based; Kobo and B&N are not hardware-based companies. Like Amazon, they want to bring people into their eco system. Yes, MobileRead folk know that they can buy ebooks at other booksellers, strip the DRM, and read the ebooks on the device of their choosing. But you cannot equate the more sophisticated/knowledgeable MR ebooker with the average reader. The average reader buys a Nook because they like to shop at B&N and don't know or care about other bookstores.

FWIW, I also think comparing the Sony hardware with the forthcoming Kobo/Nook touch devices is not as straight forward as some people imply. Let's not forget that the firmware for the Sony permits the user to do things that -- at least as so far disclosed -- it does not appear that the Kobo/Nook touches can do, such as freehand drawing/note taking and the ability to switch amongst dictionaries. These things may not be important to you, but for some of us they are important and justify a premium price.

Like others, I paid the full price for both my 505 and 950 and I do not regret having done so. I think the Sonys were/are worth the price differential. As I've said before, my 505 is 3.5 years old, has been wholly problem free right out of the box, and continues to work perfectly. I have more than amortized the price differential.

[elemenoP]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Also, you can bookmark this page now-- by the end of the year 2012 (giving them one year to ramp up-- it might be too late with this year's model) Sony will either have brought their readers into parity with the prices of their competition-- or will have dropped out of the market. The will not survive at significantly higher prices.

But there is a third option for Sony: release new models with new technology we haven't seen in other readers, at a premium price.

Perhaps color e-ink (Mirasol??)?

eP

[Anarel]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We know people want DRM removed. We know people want to be able to buy eBooks from any store selling them. The only way for this to happen is for Amazon to abandon Mobipocket and move to ePub. We have too many other readers using ADE to get them to go Mobipocket. Besides, it's Mobipocket format that's the more obsolete format. So if we had ePub across the board, then we could work on getting DRM removed. Amazon is the hold-out in the format

The "They" of which you speak, Publishers, are going to cling to DRM as long as humanely possible, and having only one book format, one DRM to push onto books isn't going to make them throw up the white flag. If anything, having only one book format to sell books with might even make them dig in their heels, extend this stupid war.

Yes, a lot of other ereaders are use ADE and Epub, but it is wholly unfair of you to lay the blame at Amazon's doorstep. There are different versions of Epub out there, with different flavors of DRM on top, so it certainly isn't as if the entire world has joined hands under DRM-less epub and Amazon is just the one being contrary.

And to be honest, I don't see how touch screens will improve my reading experience. Ok yes, I can tap on a word to get the definition as opposed to scrolling up the screen with a directional pad, but short of that.. what else is a touch screen good for?

Tapping the screen to turn the page is exactly the same as pressing a button, and a finger swipe, depending on the size of the e-reader and the weight, isn't as simple as pressing a button.

My K3 has a keyboard and it is only slightly bigger than the New Simple Touch Nook, so what on Earth are people complaining about when the keyboard is a waste of space? They have the same screen size, nearly the same weight- certainly not enough of a difference between the two to seriously consider the difference in weight, But there, a touch screen for data input, and what does that do so much better than a physical keyboard that it would make my reading experience so much better?