How can we convince Amazon to sell ePub format?

[screwballl]

Give it a few years, one format will either take over or a new one will appear that will force all the vendors to step up and support it.

I think the only one that all readers support right now is mobi, which works well for all text, but for image laden ebooks, it doesn't work so well.

[EowynCarter]

The reason you don't see Kindle apps for the Nook and Sony reader is because those companies don't want people to read Amazon's e-books on their readers, any more than Amazon wants people reading books from other vendors on their Kindles.

There is a clause saying that mobi DRM is exclusive. That why bookeen coudn't keep mobi drm, along with ePub.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

There is a clause saying that mobi DRM is exclusive. That why bookeen coudn't keep mobi drm, along with ePub.

Exactly. You have a Kindle reader app for the systems that support installing apps (PCs, smartphones, whatever), but when the reading app is built-in with the firmware, the Mobipocket contract prevents other vendors to include other DRM mechanisms with the Mobipocket one. Bookeen has to provide two different firmwares: one with Mobipocket DRM, one with Adobe DRM, because Mobipocket (i.e., Amazon) won't let them bundle both in a single firmware.

[K-Thom]

Sorry, but this is nonsensical as an argument. The Mobipocket DRM restriction was imposed by Amazon to shut out competing DRM schemes on third-party devices.

Amazon wouldn't self-restrict itself by not offering the Kindle app on platforms which already offer a DRM'd eBook format.
And it doesn't. The Kindle app is offered for the iPad although Amazon knew iBooks was a feature when the device was announced.

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Kindle owners tend to be like Apple fanboys. They're only pleased with their devices because they don't realize that there's something better out there, don't wish to know, and Amazon is making sure they never do. IE, blissful ignorance.

Alternatively, they may have experienced the other side of the fence and decided that maybe the Amazon approach works for them, taking myself as an example, the combination of geo-restrictions and the convenience of synching with my phone and ipad being a much more useful feature than a touchscreen have lead me to buy a kindle to replace my sony when I decided I wanted a reader with one of the newer e-ink screens.

Having more choice of shops to buy from isn't inherently an advantage in of itself, it only becomes an advantage if you do actually have a genuine choice and half those shops aren't refusing to sell you the book you want or wanting to charge more than the amazon price.

As far as what Amazon might do in the future, we have already seen that the most important thing for them is selling books as seen by their various apps, so logically if the rest of the ebook market becomes a significant loss to them then it is more likely that they start selling books in epub format more than adding epub support to the kindle or perhaps they might even start licensing 3rd parties to make kindles, but that niche is probably covered pretty well with a kindle app on tablets.

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

ePub's being adopted by every-friggin'-body else has effectively thrown a monkey-wrench into that machine. Enough other bookstores have comparable experiences to the Kindle store, and comparable (or--yes!--better) readers, to present viable alternatives to Amazon. And as most people prefer more choices, a market that allows you to buy the reader you want from multiple sellers, and buy books from multiple sellers, is more attractive than having only one books source for a reader that doesn't read other sellers' books.

The biggest shame is that the likes of B&N and Apple felt the need to fragment the united front of the epub market by using their own drm as that harms the whole choice argument for no reason.

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by Avarwen

That's why I said give it a few years for now Amazon is king of the ereaders but that could change in the next few years. I have a feeling as more people get into ereaders and more choice is presented Amazon may have to change their mind.

The most common point of entry for people to ebooks these days seems to come from phones and to a lesser extent tablets and it is tough to see that changing drastically in the future, Amazon have clearly recognised and responded to that challenge without having to budge from their basic plan.

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by BobLenx

Personal opinion here, but I think eventually there will be one standard ebook format, and it isn't going to be Amazon's - it will be ePub. With GoogleBooks now on-line, and major libraries putting their material into digital format, and more companies producing eReaders, ePbub will win out.

If it makes better financial sense for them to switch than to keep trying to develop mobi then I am sure what would happen is you get Amazon drm wrapped round epub, this whole question of epub vs mobi is just stupid really, the true competition is between the competing drm formats until the market grows up enough to move beyond it.

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by Crowl

As far as what Amazon might do in the future, ... logically if the rest of the ebook market becomes a significant loss to them then it is more likely that they start selling books in epub format more than adding epub support to the kindle ...

YES!

It's frustrating that when this issue is raised, Kindle users misdirect it into a discussion about the Kindle supporting epub.
But that's not the issue!

The issue--as the the thread title suggests, and your comment acknowledges--is to get Amazon to allow non-Kindle users to buy books too.

[screwballl]

Part of the situation right now is that the ebook market and readers are still so new that every company is choosing to stick and primarily use their own formats. Sony has their own drm that only works with their devices, even if it is epub or mobi, it is still locked to their service or device. Same with B&N and most of the others.

Yet at the same time they all have other formats they also support which means you can get non-drm files to be used on almost any reader. Even if you get a non-DRM epub book and have a Kindle, spend the 30 seconds to use calibre to convert it to mobi and read it. So really just because the Kindle does not support epub natively does not mean there is not a way to get the ebook and convert it to use it.

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

It's frustrating that when this issue is raised, Kindle users misdirect it into a discussion about the Kindle supporting epub.
But that's not the issue!
The issue ... is to get Amazon to allow non-Kindle users to buy books too.

Originally Posted by screwballl

So really just because the Kindle does not support epub natively does not mean there is not a way to get the ebook and convert it to use it.

Thank you, screwball. You just illustrated what I said.

The problem has nothing to do with the Kindle.
The problem is how to get Amazon to sell ebooks to us non-Kindle users too--in a format we can use.

[screwballl]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Thank you, screwball. You just illustrated what I said.

The problem has nothing to do with the Kindle.
The problem is how to get Amazon to sell ebooks to us non-Kindle users too--in a format we can use.

Amazon is in the business of making money from their services and devices, as they have every right to. If they do not want to allow other options, they do not have to.
That is not to say you could not buy the amazon book, then use calibre to convert it.

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by screwballl

That is not to say you could not buy the amazon book, then use calibre to convert it.

The only way I can make sense out of that sentence is if you are suggesting I do this:

• Buy the book with the intent (in Amazon's eyes) of reading on my PC,
• Use the swindle script to scrape the DRM off,
• Use calibre to convert it to epub, and
• Copy it to my reader

If that will work, then thank you. I had not realized this was possible.

Will Amazon sell a DRM-corrupted book for reading without a Kindle?
Is swindle reliable enough to depend on it in this scheme?

[FF2]

Since Amazon has all of the apps for macs, pc's, blackberry, iphone, they already sell books to folks who do not have a REAL Kindle. But they are drm-ed to Amazon's standards. So once purchased, depending on your moral code and your view of legal issues, you can strip drm and convert.

edited to add: actually, if I understand the stripping process, you actually need a NON-kindle version of the ebook to process - not the version on the kindle. So you need the pc or mac (other?) version downloaded to your computer

[screwballl]

You do not need an actual Kindle to purchase ebooks from Amazon. It may help to download and register "Kindle for PC" with them, even if you do not officially install it.

I have used DRM Tools Archive 2.3 (which includes unswindle) and it worked well for my testing on 2 books (the other 1000+ ebooks I have either did not have DRM, they were scanned and converted before companies started adding DRM to ebook files, many of them I did legally pay for or got legally free from various sources like Gutenburg Project).

Otherwise, yes if you want to buy a DRM book from Amazon for use on your device, that would be the steps to get it converted. Also realize that many books do not have any DRM at all so calibre can convert it directly without the need to use unswindle or DRM Tools.

From a legal perspective, the law conflicts itself and I seriously doubt there will be any resolution of this anytime soon.

The Fair Use Act states you have every right to use, change or convert whatever media (analog or digital) you legally acquired as long as it is only for your own personal use.

The DMCA states you have NO right to change or convert whatever media you legally acquired, only to use it in the exact form which you legally acquired it. They also added in a piece that states it is illegal to bypass any "copyright protection measures" such as DRM, which is why so many companies are using various types of what they call DRM.

This way if you bypass it, you are legally responsible whatever happens after that.