The Vent and Rant Thread

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Kenny, I've just bought something from Amazon (US) a couple of nights ago and saw no reference to sales tax (though I got light-headed at the shipping costs! About 50% on top of the purchase price of the goods!) Where is the sales tax listed in the price breakdown?

Or is it like the UK's VAT, and because I'm buying from Somewhere Else On The Planet I don't get charged it?

Enquiring minds want to know! ;-)

Thanks,
Bran

The United States has a bewildering variety of jurisdictions and tax codes. There are Federal taxes, state taxes, and local taxes, with wide variations in what gets taxed at what rate. Some places have sales taxes, and there are further qualifications in what is considered taxable. (Where I live, for instance, food it not taxable.)

A chap I was speaking to on another forum outside MR talked about driving extra miles on shopping trips, to shop in a jurisdiction that had lower or no taxes on what he bought than the one in which he lived. He agreed that counting in the extra time, mileage costs for the vehicle and the like, he might actually be spending more overall for his purchases, but he had a philosophic objection to the taxes and would go through extra time, effort, and expense to avoid them.

I've been bemused locally because my state sees excise taxes and luxury taxes as handy sources of revenue. So in the past few years, tax rates on tobacco have skyrocketed, and an average pack of cigarettes sells for about $11. In nearby states, it's probably about 1/3 that. But you can buy packages of "cigarillos" that are the same size as cigarette packages, containing 20 filter tipped miniature cigars the size of cigarettes. Because they aren't, technically, cigarettes, they don't get hit with the taxes, and cost about $2.50 a pack. Suddenly a lot of smokers are switching to cigars...

It's a madhouse for national retailers like Amazon, as they must keep track of what areas levy sales taxes they are required to charge, what rate of tax they must apply, and where the must send the collected proceeds.

And it's a politically fraught issue over here, as a lot of folks consider the fact that they don't get charged taxes on Internet sales to be one of the big reasons to buy over the Internet. But states and municipalities that garner significant revenue from such taxes want their cut of the take, and are increasingly pushing to get it. I've seen folks doing things like purchasing using a proxy server, so their apparent IP address isn't their actual one. "Geo-location" software maps your IP address to a geographic location, and is what the retailer will use to determine if it's supposed to charge you tax.
______
Dennis

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And it's a politically fraught issue over here, as a lot of folks consider the fact that they don't get charged taxes on Internet sales to be one of the big reasons to buy over the Internet. But states and municipalities that garner significant revenue from such taxes want their cut of the take, and are increasingly pushing to get it. I've seen folks doing things like purchasing using a proxy server, so their apparent IP address isn't their actual one. "Geo-location" software maps your IP address to a geographic location, and is what the retailer will use to determine if it's supposed to charge you tax.

Ouch, I can see that it would get very tangled very quickly. So, even within the US, you get charged sales tax according to where the buyer is located, not the vendor? (I'm not implying any criticism, just trying to be clear about it.) I would have guessed it would be based on the vendor, because that's where the business is being transacted, but I s'pose the other way makes sense, because otherwise the higher-taxing states would find it hard to get businesses to set up there, wouldn't they?

(I know -- or think I do! -- from my reading that the independent sovereignty of the various states has been retained more strongly in the US than most other countries that have been separate states (like my own country, for instance) that then confederated. So I know it's one thing to do a transaction within the same state, but a lot of rules change once it involves crossing one or more state lines.)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by kennyc

True, unless unless something changes.

Good luck. I'd advise not holding your breath while you wait for it.

If it is related to the presence/agent thing then it should only apply to certain books. I'll report back if I see anything along those lines (e.g. I purchase a book and am NOT charged sales tax.)

Please do, though I'll be a bit surprised if it is.

It may be that the law changed, we did have a number of new laws go into effect in the last month....

(I do like a good conspiracy theory though and would be a shame for it to just be greedy politicians.)

Why greedy politicians? Taxes fund state services. Service are provided by state employees who like to get paid. Guess where the money in their paychecks comes from?

Oh and "Presence" related to tax codes is if the internet seller has a storefront in the state.

Amazon doesn't have storefronts that I'm aware of. They do have warehouses/distribution centers in various places, and if they have one in Colorado, it would qualify as a presence.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Ouch, I can see that it would get very tangled very quickly. So, even within the US, you get charged sales tax according to where the buyer is located, not the vendor? (I'm not implying any criticism, just trying to be clear about it.)

Yes. The sales tax is imposed by the area in which the sale is made. Some localities don't have sales taxes

I would have guessed it would be based on the vendor, because that's where the business is being transacted, but I s'pose the other way makes sense, because otherwise the higher-taxing states would find it hard to get businesses to set up there, wouldn't they?

No, the vendor is with whom the transaction is made. Where the transaction occurs is another matter.

And higher taxing states do have problems getting businesses to set up shop there, which is another politically fraught issue. If a state imposes too high a level of corporate taxes, the business might just pick up and move to a lower tax area. The state loses not only the taxes, but the jobs the business provided to folks who live in the area. "Soak big business" may be popular among short-sighted voters, but the longer term effects of doing so aren't what the voters have in mind.

(I know -- or think I do! -- from my reading that the independent sovereignty of the various states has been retained more strongly in the US than most other countries that have been separate states (like my own country, for instance) that then confederated. So I know it's one thing to do a transaction within the same state, but a lot of rules change once it involves crossing one or more state lines.)

Yes, it has. And "State's Rights" is another political football over here, with lots of squabbling over just what rights the Federal Government has, and what areas are reserved to the states and the Feds have no control over. It gets thorny when business crosses state lines, as interstate commerce is under Federal jurisdiction.
______
Dennis

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Kenny, I've just bought something from Amazon (US) a couple of nights ago and saw no reference to sales tax (though I got light-headed at the shipping costs! About 50% on top of the purchase price of the goods!) Where is the sales tax listed in the price breakdown?

Or is it like the UK's VAT, and because I'm buying from Somewhere Else On The Planet I don't get charged it?

Enquiring minds want to know! ;-)

Thanks,
Bran

It was in the email "receipt" that I got after purchase. I didn't actually notice if it was on the Order before I pressed submit or not as it has never been there to my knowledge.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

...


Amazon doesn't have storefronts that I'm aware of. They do have warehouses/distribution centers in various places, and if they have one in Colorado, it would qualify as a presence.
______
Dennis

But that's exactly the point. If the Publisher (for whom Amazon is acting as an agent) has a presence in the state then they can charge sales tax.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by kennyc

But that's exactly the point. If the Publisher (for whom Amazon is acting as an agent) has a presence in the state then they can charge sales tax.

What presence might the publisher have? As mentioned, the fact that books they publish might be sold there isn't likely to qualify.

If they have an actual brick and mortar operation (like a warehouse/distribution center,) it probably does qualify.

But so what? As I said, it's not like the retailer or the publisher want to charge taxes. They don't see a benefit from it. They'll be just as happy not to, so I can't really point the finger of blame at them.

The state wants to charge the taxes, and the local tax codes let them do so in a particular case.
______
Dennis

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by kennyc

But that's exactly the point. If the Publisher (for whom Amazon is acting as an agent) has a presence in the state then they can charge sales tax.

no, I don't think so. Amazon is the sales agent and I believe all tax transactions have to occur between them prior to any cost being passed on to the purchaser

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

What presence might the publisher have? As mentioned, the fact that books they publish might be sold there isn't likely to qualify.

If they have an actual brick and mortar operation (like a warehouse/distribution center,) it probably does qualify.

But so what? As I said, it's not like the retailer or the publisher want to charge taxes. They don't see a benefit from it. They'll be just as happy not to, so I can't really point the finger of blame at them.

The state wants to charge the taxes, and the local tax codes let them do so in a particular case.
______
Dennis

Dennis, I don't know what it is, but you seem to want to beat the life out of every discussion. I simply made an observation which remains to be determined as to the cause. I made a couple of suggestions as to possibilities that I know exist. Without further information there is no answer.

And yes both Amazon and the Publisher (whom amazon may be acting as agent for) have a vested interest. If they do not collect the proper taxes according to the applicable law they are liable.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

no, I don't think so. Amazon is the sales agent and I believe all tax transactions have to occur between them prior to any cost being passed on to the purchaser

That's not the point. Yes Amazon is the one conducting the transaction so they are responsible for collecting the taxes, but my point in all this is that I've never been charged taxes on a Kindle book before (at least to my knowledge) and this time I was. The question is why?

[kennyc]

BTW Here is Amazon's page on Taxes:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...5534884&sr=1-1

whew!

In particular (note the inclusion of certain PUBLISHERS):

Sales Tax on Items Purchased from Select Amazon Merchants

In order to offer you the widest selection and the most convenient shopping experience, Amazon.com has teamed with many other merchants. Your order may contain items from one or more of these online merchants. Each of these online merchants may have different sales tax collection obligations, depending upon their business policies and the location of their operations. Amazon.com calculates sales taxes on the merchants' behalf in accordance with their instructions. These instructions vary depending on the tax laws in each state.

The following is a partial list of merchants selling items at Amazon.com which may be included in your order, and the states in which they charge sales tax.

* Amazon.com LLC: KS, KY, ND, NY and WA
* Amazon Digital Services, Inc.: KY, ND, NY and WA (Kindle content, MP3s, and digital videos are only taxable in KY and WA)
* Magazine Express, Inc.: AL and WA
* Synapse Services, Inc.: WA only
* Target.com: All states other than VT
* Hachette Digital, Inc.: AL, AZ, CO, CT, DC, HI, ID, IN, KY, LA, ME, MS, NC, NE, NJ, NM, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, WA, WI and WY*
* Harper Collins Publishers, LLC: All states other than AK, AL, AZ, DE, HI, MT, NH, NV, OK, OR, SD, VT and WY*
* Penguin Group (USA) Inc: All States*
* Simon & Schuster Digital Sales, Inc.: All states other than AK, DE, MT, NH, and OR*
* Macmillan: AZ, CO, CT, DC, HI, IN, KY, ME, MS, NC, NE, NJ, NM, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, WA, WI and WY*
* Zondervan Corporation LLC: CA, CO, FL, GA, IA, IL, IN, LA, MA, MD, MI, MO, NC, NV, OH, PA, SC, TX and WA*

* Kindle books sold by various publishers are subject to sales tax based on the publisher's state tax reporting obligations and the taxability of digital books in those states. As a result, sales tax for Kindle books sold by the publisher may differ from the sales tax to which you've been accustomed for Kindle books.

[kindlekitten]

wouldn't you like to be Amazon's tax attorney? NOT!

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

wouldn't you like to be Amazon's tax attorney? NOT!

Yeah! Those guys are very well paid!!

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by Wetdogeared

[Any thoughts of switching to hardwood floors?]

It doesn't work, the wood soaks up the liquid, and that doesn't include the tongue/groove gap !


Tax is a burden !

[LazyScot]

YEAARRRGGGHH!

<itch, itch, scratch, scratch>

YYYYYEEEEAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!!

<itch, scratch, itch, scratch>

Farqueen Urticaria.

Dear Reality, if I really wanted to look like a giant raspberry liberally garnished with itching powder, I would do something subtle like jump into a hornets nest, take a bath in poison ivy juice or call Adrian a wuss.

And no, dear members of the medical profession, telling me that the solution to such things is to avoid the cause of the allergy for a long period of time is really not much help. Especially since you have narrowed the allergen down to "me" or "food".... Nescio seems like a more useful diagnosis of the cause.

YEEEARRRGITCHITCHITCH.

(yes, I know antihistamines help, but only up to a point, and with me the take at least 30 minutes to kick in....)