Seriously thoughtful Science Literacy in the U.S.A.

[kennyc]

Just ran across this from Science Daily:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0415105954.htm

"ScienceDaily (Apr. 19, 2010) — Math teachers in the United States need better training if the nation's K-12 students are going to compete globally, according to international research released by a Michigan State University scholar. ....."

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

I have hope.

Me too - my sons favorite subject is math!!! I'm so proud

I tried with my daughter but it didn't take as well, here is conversation we've had at my house....

Her: I don't like math, it is too hard and doesn't make sense.
Me: Math is great, for almost all of everyday math, once you know the rules you can figure anything out. Wait, watch this .... what's 2 + 2?
Her: 4
Me: If it is Tuesday what is 2 + 2?
Her: 4
Me: What if you're in a train going West at 45 miles and hour? What is 2 + 2?
Her: [exasperated] 4!
Me: Right! [getting excited] For everywhere we are ever likely to be 2 +2 will always be 4. How cool is that?!
Her: Mom!!! Dad is doing it again...
Wife: David, leave her alone.
Me: [to Daughter] Ask your mom if it is E...I or I...E?
Wife: I can hear you, you know, and it is "I before E".
Me: .... Aha... except...?
Wife: [tired] ... after C.
Me: .... orrrr .....?
Wife: when sounded like A as in -
Me: [to daughter] See how much easier math is?
Wife and Daughter: Don't you have grass to mow?

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by dsvick

Me too - my sons favorite subject is math!!! I'm so proud

I tried with my daughter but it didn't take as well, here is conversation we've had at my house....

Her: I don't like math, it is too hard and doesn't make sense.
Me: Math is great, for almost all of everyday math, once you know the rules you can figure anything out. Wait, watch this .... what's 2 + 2?
Her: 4
Me: If it is Tuesday what is 2 + 2?
Her: 4
Me: What if you're in a train going West at 45 miles and hour? What is 2 + 2?
Her: [exasperated] 4!
Me: Right! [getting excited] For everywhere we are ever likely to be 2 +2 will always be 4. How cool is that?!
Her: Mom!!! Dad is doing it again...
Wife: David, leave her alone.
Me: [to Daughter] Ask your mom if it is E...I or I...E?
Wife: I can hear you, you know, and it is "I before E".
Me: .... Aha... except...?
Wife: [tired] ... after C.
Me: .... orrrr .....?
Wife: when sounded like A as in -
Me: [to daughter] See how much easier math is?
Wife and Daughter: Don't you have grass to mow?

You're a wise man, Charley Brown, err, Dave.

[kennyc]

Here's a TED Talk by Michael Specter about the Danger of Science Denial by the public:

http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_spe...ce_denial.html

[FlorenceArt]

As an outsider (i.e. non American), I hope I won't tread on any toes if I voice some of my thoughts on this subject...

Some people on this thread seem to assume that there is a link between the quality of basic education and the quality and effectiveness of research in a country. I don't believe that is true. From what I read, the opposite is true to some extent. Countries which invest heavily in basic education, such as France or Japan, often fare very poorly in the research field, and vice versa. I suppose it has to do with the allocation of limited resources. A good education costs a lot.

Not that I'm saying that having a good basic education is a waste of resources. Quite the contrary. But it's not a question of staying on the cutting edge of research, or of attaining or retaining power. As I see it, it's more a question of how you use that power.

At least one person already mentioned the link to democracy, and that is the most important one IMO. Democracy supposes that the average citizen is responsible and educated. And this is what a good basic education should produce, I believe: responsible citizens, who know how to make informed decisions.

In that light, an even more important thing than teaching scientific facts is teaching about science: what it is, how it works, what a scientific fact is, and how it is established.

There are many misunderstandings about science, but what it all boils down to, I think, is that science is scary, because it allows doubt. Worse, doubt is one of the main tools of scientific research. And people don't want doubts, they want reassurance. Learning to deal with doubt is one of the main challenges of the modern world.

This may seem a little too theoretical, but I do believe it is essential. This is not just about teaching facts, it's about teaching to recognize facts from reassuring fiction. It's about learning to cope with the world as it is, rather than as we would like it to be. This is about being a responsible citizen in a democracy. I think this is a challenge we all face, and education may not be the only answer, but it's the starting point without which anything else may prove to be pointless.

[rock]

Not sure if this has been mention in the 8 pages, here is Micho Kaku's answer about US's science.

whether certain technologies were possible in the future or not.

Q. How does the rest of the world view the U.S.'s take on science?
A. Let's put politics aside and just talk about science. I do a lot of lecturing around the world, and wherever I go, I am surprised that people admire and envy the science created in the U.S. It's surprising to me, since the U.S. has the worst educational system known to science. U.S. kids score near the very bottom in almost every math and physics exam. So why doesn't the U.S. collapse as a technological nation? The U.S. does a miserable job in educating the average student, but the U.S. has two secret weapons that other nations don't have. The first is the H1B visa (the genius visa), which puts high-tech immigrants on the fast track right to a green card and Silicon Valley, where they go on to create entirely new industries. Fifty percent of Silicon Valley is actually foreign born. This is the brain drain. The second is that our education system selects out the exceptional student. In the East, there is the expression, "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down." In the U.S., we have the expression, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." The U.S. educational system does nurture exceptional, creative talent, which is the weak spot in many Asian societies.

Although when I was in school I was getting advance scores in Science.

I think the issue today is now the schools are just teaching what is on standardized tests, and not about the science. I learned a lot in school, but from what I hear from old classmates who are teachers now, it is not the same.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by dsvick

Me too - my sons favorite subject is math!!! I'm so proud

I tried with my daughter but it didn't take as well, here is conversation we've had at my house....

Her: I don't like math, it is too hard and doesn't make sense.
Me: Math is great, for almost all of everyday math, once you know the rules you can figure anything out. Wait, watch this .... what's 2 + 2?
Her: 4
Me: If it is Tuesday what is 2 + 2?
Her: 4
Me: What if you're in a train going West at 45 miles and hour? What is 2 + 2?
Her: [exasperated] 4!
Me: Right! [getting excited] For everywhere we are ever likely to be 2 +2 will always be 4. How cool is that?!
Her: Mom!!! Dad is doing it again...
Wife: David, leave her alone.
Me: [to Daughter] Ask your mom if it is E...I or I...E?
Wife: I can hear you, you know, and it is "I before E".
Me: .... Aha... except...?
Wife: [tired] ... after C.
Me: .... orrrr .....?
Wife: when sounded like A as in -
Me: [to daughter] See how much easier math is?
Wife and Daughter: Don't you have grass to mow?

2 + 2 only equals 4 if the right measurements are being used. Two earthquakes numbering 2 on the Richter scale do not equal one numbering 4 on that scale!


http://virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/TwoPlusTwo.html

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by rock

Although when I was in school I was getting advance scores in Science.

I think the issue today is now the schools are just teaching what is on standardized tests, and not about the science. I learned a lot in school, but from what I hear from old classmates who are teachers now, it is not the same.

That's a large part of the issue. The No Child Left Behind and standardized testing has more or less ruined education....IMO

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

2 + 2 only equals 4 if the right measurements are being used. Two earthquakes numbering 2 on the Richter scale do not equal one numbering 4 on that scale!


http://virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/TwoPlusTwo.html

That's because the richter scale is logarithmic.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

2 + 2 only equals 4 if the right measurements are being used. Two earthquakes numbering 2 on the Richter scale do not equal one numbering 4 on that scale!

Originally Posted by kennyc

That's because the richter scale is logarithmic.

Isn't that the kind of math the used in Abe Lincoln's day?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Isn't that the kind of math the used in Abe Lincoln's day?

Wood that it were so.

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by cmdahler

Truly, and that faculty of critical thinking is what leads me to the opinion that there are Useful Sciences and Useless Sciences. That's not to say I'm arguing that the Useless Sciences are wrong, just that they essentially contribute nothing to truly important human progress. Knowledge for knowledge's sake is fine when you don't have truly pressing societal problems to solve, but it's like eating out every day when you can afford to pay your credit card bill. People in school can gain all the benefits of scientific, critical thinking and still focus on the things that really matter. Wasting time on archaeology, for example, is just that: a waste. That person with all that capacity for deductive reasoning and years of education could be doing something that really benefits society, like finding a cure for my daughter's diabetes instead of wasting their life digging useless holes in the ground so tourists will have some pottery shard to look at in a museum.

If you don't know and understand the story of Dionysius of Syracuse, you'll always have a tyrant or another over your head...

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by GlennD

The whole debate over creationism vs. evolution has always kind of bugged me. In my mind, science and religion ask two different questions - science asks "how?", religion asks "why?". Science is based on repeatable observations, religion is based on "the evidence of things not seen".

I believe that God created man - whether He did so by guiding a natural process or by the snap of a divine finger is irrelevant to me. I also believe that He created me with a brain for a reason - He expects me to use it to try to understand His creation as well as I'm able to.

In the end I think that science and religion will intersect, as they are both searching for truth. In the meantime I don't think it's useful to argue over which is "right", they're not incompatible.

They become incompatible when you put it all in al larger scope.
You seem to believe evolution has come to an halt.
But if you think that we're just another stage of an always changing environment and not an end point, you'll gather that God was not creating you, but what your descendants will be in a few billion years from now...

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Format C:

They become incompatible when you put it all in al larger scope.
You seem to believe evolution has come to an halt.
But if you think that we're just another stage of an always changing environment and not an end point, you'll gather that God was not creating you, but what your descendants will be in a few billion years from now...

That works up to a point, but you should keep in mind that, once there is no need for adaptation anymore, as the differences in fitness are negligible (or no longer being selected by partners), you will reach a plateau as a species. Sort of like how the cockroach, or some types of crocodile, haven't needed to "evolve" (that is, change to fit new circumstances) for millions of years: their current constitution is resilient and versatile enough for it not to be necessary, and any changes that might occur are too slow to occur before the pressures change once more.
Similarly, and fairly uniquely, humans are capable of changing their environment to fit their needs. As such, "evolution" is becoming ever more unlikely, especially given the amount of interconnectedness of subpopulations, which prevents mutations from establishing themselves before spreading.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Format C:

They become incompatible when you put it all in al larger scope.
You seem to believe evolution has come to an halt.
But if you think that we're just another stage of an always changing environment and not an end point, you'll gather that God was not creating you, but what your descendants will be in a few billion years from now...

I had a roommate once who asked "What if this is still the 7th day and god is still resting? And what if he has more plans for his next week?"