which format will win?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

I bought a load of audible content that I can't now use despite having all the 1s and 0s because it was tied to a device and account that isn't easily available to me. Despite having back-ups, I cannot restore; so I think it reasonable to say that DRM is absolutely related to the ability to make a usable backup.

OT, I think that epub is likely to become the mp3 of the ebook world - the most likely to be supported format. That didn't stop AAC, OGG, that Microsoft one, FLAC etc.
But is there any relationship between LaTex and Tex?

google is your friend.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Uh no. In this context we are not talking about restoring a computer, but simply being to make a backup copy of a file. DRM does not interfere with or prevent that from happening.

The only reason for having a backup is in case of data loss. Nobody needs a collection of identical, duplicate files just so they can look at them.

Computer crashes and damaged/corrupt discs are common reasons for that loss. To be useful, a backup has to work *after* a system restore.

[drmathprog]

Originally Posted by kennyc

google is your friend.

At lease when you're not talking about social networking services.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The only reason for having a backup is in case of data loss. Nobody needs a collection of identical, duplicate files just so they can look at them.

Computer crashes and damaged/corrupt discs are common reasons for that loss. To be useful, a backup has to work *after* a system restore.

True but again we are not talking about any of that. The initial objection as that DRM PREVENTS one from backing up the file. It simply isn't true.

And regardless of the computer if the file were transferred to the reader it was intended to be read on, it would work just fine.

[fugazied]

By all accounts epub will be the standard and will hopefully be properly managed as features are added. Hopefully it will be better managed than standards like HTML which transition so very very slowly.

They will need to feature add faster than the transition between HTML 4 to HTML 5 which is taking years.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by kennyc

True but again we are not talking about any of that. The initial objection as that DRM PREVENTS one from backing up the file. It simply isn't true.

It prevents *useful* backups. You can store your car in a 4" cube, but you can't drive it again later. A "backup" that doesn't work when you need it is useless.

And regardless of the computer if the file were transferred to the reader it was intended to be read on, it would work just fine.

The "device" may be the computer itself. More people read ebooks on computers than on mobile devices.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The "device" may be the computer itself. More people read ebooks on computers than on mobile devices.

I've not used any of the PC ebook readers etc., but I'd assume it would be easy enough to tie DRM to one's account in an e-reader program, rather than a machine.

Just like DRMd songs in iTunes in the past were tied to the account and could be on 5 machines (or whatever the number was) that were tied to that account.

And there should be way to transfer the license to different machines--if there isn't already.

Example, the download games on the X-box 360. If your's breaks, they are tied to your Xbox live account. You can redownload them and play them when signed in, as well as call them up and get the licenses transferred to your new Xbox so you can play without being online and signed in.

So yeah, DRM sucks and is a hassle. But there are ways it can be made to work a bit better and not keep people who paid for something from not having access to their content when they switch machines etc.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

So yeah, DRM sucks and is a hassle. But there are ways it can be made to work a bit better and not keep people who paid for something from not having access to their content when they switch machines etc.

But every popular form of DRM gets hacked, so in practice it's the people who pay up and follow the rules who get the worst service. Having lost content that I've paid for to DRM in the past, I get rid of it straight away if I possibly can. All sorts of schemes have been dreamt up that work in theory, but in practice they prevent legitimate, paid-up customers from accessing the content while doing nothing to stop piracy - in fact they make piracy worse (because the legitimate copies are harder to use and less useful).

[dmaul1114]

I agree, that's why I said DRM does suck. It just hassles the legitimate users and does nothing to thwart piracy.

Was just saying some forums of DRM suck less than others.

[clarknova]

Originally Posted by kennyc

And regardless of the computer if the file were transferred to the reader it was intended to be read on, it would work just fine.

So if your device is the copy of Kindle For PC that you downloaded your book to, and you suffer a hard disk failure, replace your hard disk, recover your files from backup, and guess what? You still cannot read your file.

This is a semantics argument. If you define "backing up" as "copying to a secondary source," then yes, you can back up anything. If, however, you define "backing up" as "copying to a secondary source in case of accident or disaster with the intent of being able to recover and use the data" then DRM can and often will prevent that. Since the first definition is useless, arguing it is Devil's advocacy.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by clarknova

So if your device is the copy of Kindle For PC that you downloaded your book to, and you suffer a hard disk failure, replace your hard disk, recover your files from backup, and guess what? You still cannot read your file.

You could as you can have Kindle books on multiple machines (how many varies by book/publisher). I often have a book on my Kindle, my work desktop and my girlfriends laptop etc. So if one broke, I could download it to another machine.

I'm not sure what happens when you run out of machines to put it on. You can deregister machines you no longer have--not sure if that gives you a slot back for each book or not though. It did with iTunes back in the day, not sure with Kindle.

I'd hope you could de-register a machine, and gain access to download it to one other machine afterwards--but someone else would have to confirm that.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It prevents *useful* backups. You can store your car in a 4" cube, but you can't drive it again later. A "backup" that doesn't work when you need it is useless.



The "device" may be the computer itself. More people read ebooks on computers than on mobile devices.

It doesn't prevent a backup. What is it you don't understand about that statement?

Sheesh.

[BillSmithBooks]

Originally Posted by kennyc

It doesn't prevent a backup. What is it you don't understand about that statement?

Sheesh.

This argument strikes me as evading the issue: "Sure you can back it up, you just can't use it."

It reminds me of the opponents of gay marriage arguing that they're not opposed to gay people getting married -- after all, a gay man is free to marry any woman he wants to. (Oh, you mean gay people want to marry *each other*? Oh, can't have that.)

Factually accurate while sidestepping the issue.

I'll go hide now.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by BillSmithBooks

This argument strikes me as evading the issue: "Sure you can back it up, you just can't use it."

It reminds me of the opponents of gay marriage arguing that they're not opposed to gay people getting married -- after all, a gay man is free to marry any woman he wants to. (Oh, you mean gay people want to marry *each other*? Oh, can't have that.)

Factually accurate while sidestepping the issue.

I'll go hide now.

Not true that you can't use it. See my example. Sure in some cases you might not be able to, but usability is not the point. AGAIN. The Claim that start this stupid arguing was that DRM prevented you from making a backup which is simply not true.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Not true that you can't use it. See my example. Sure in some cases you might not be able to, but usability is not the point. AGAIN. The Claim that start this stupid arguing was that DRM prevented you from making a backup which is simply not true.

Yeah, there's really 2 issues here.

1. Can you make a back up?

2. If you device the DRM'd file is tied to breaks, can you put the back up copy on a new device and use it?

The answer to the first is as resounding yes.

The answer to the second is--it depends. Usually you can as long as you replace the broken device with the same device (replace a Kindle with a new Kindle for example) as the DRM is tied to your account which will be moved to the new device. But even then there may be issues depending how many Kindles/Kindle Apps you've downloaded the book to.

If companies would just have a process for easily switching DRM to new machines of the same type on the same account it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.

Then the problem is that you're locked into that companies devices if you want to keep reading DRMed books without stripping the DRM.