Seriously thoughtful American Health Care

[krisk]

Originally Posted by Kostas

Very interesting (even for someone who has lived several years in France).
Yeah, emergency treatment in the street (or even the metro) is something that you typically see in France.

what is your impression of French Health Care?

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by Angst

I may have been wrong. It seems there is still a state component to health insurance:
"With the exception of about 2 million permanent civil servants, and the self-employed, Germans who earn below Euro 3,862 gross salary per month in 2004 must join one of the 300 statutory sickness funds. Those above the mandatory insurance threshold may opt out of the state system and buy private insurance instead but many opt to remain in the state system - 10 per cent of the population are voluntarily insured."

More at: http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/bb3Germany.php

I see what you mean. As far as I understand (reading carefully):
- only 10% of the population is voluntarily insured. The other 90% of the population is covered by statutory funds. Like in many other countries, these funds are partly financed with statutory levies on wages paid both the employer and the employee. But it is a public statutory health system.
- 92% of bed hospitals are public or run by non-profit organizations

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by krisk

what is your impression of French Health Care?

Almost excellent (especially if I compare to the Greek one...).
I once had an appointment in a french hospital for a pneumonological problem.
I discovered just a few days after that I had been examined by one of the most famous French pneumonologists (a University Prof)! I had paid something like 5 euros for this...

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

I have 2 heart conditions.

1) Pulmonary Stenosis - The artery which supplies blood to my lungs is narrower than it should be, so my heart has to pump harder. The upside, I have a strong heart. The downside, it may wear out quicker than normal.

2) Heart Murmer - Basically, it's a leaky valve. Not too terrible, but it's audible with an ear to the chest.

I have been diagnosed with these since birth. I have never required or been prescribed for medication for either. I get winded more quickly than others, and for the first 30 years of my life, I have weighed no more than 125 lbs. (57Kg or 8.7 stone). I'm now up to about 145-150. Considering I am about 5'6", it's not too terribly bad.

I recently applied for health insurance, and was denied due to my 2 heart conditions. The funny thing is, a murmer is not that bad. Many MANY people have them and don't even know it, and are not even affected by it. Now, I could go wit a different plan, but I would have to pay a substantially larger amount of money per month for the coverage.

Is this fair? I don't think so. I basically need to get some insurance soon so that I can get some tests done. What with both of my younger brothers dying of Lymphoma at ages 32 and 36, I feel it might be in my best interest to make sure.

Anyway, as for a National Health Care program. No, Against it. I am against anything that give my government even more power than it already has. The US Govt is already too big for it's britches, and has it's hands in everyone's cookie jar. And I don't mean just it's citizens, but the world's as well.

We need to get back to where the government governs the states, and the states have their own laws. Abortion, Drugs, Hate Crimes (don't get me started with that one), Vaccinations, Taxes...it should be STATE RUN, not federally mandated. The Fed Gov should simply be a watchman for the state governments. That was how it used to be. That is what our Constitution dictates, and it was the sole basis for our country to begin with.

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible: you are arguing against your own interests. I'm not angry or trying to make fun, just read me out (instead of hear me.... k). The states have had their chances. They failed. They have failed for decades. It was in their hands and it failed miserably.

Also, there should not be certain standards of care in one state and different standards in another. If this occurs, the red states (i.e. mostly south) will suffer greatly. They have Republican candidates traditionally running their states and they have high portions of poor people.

I think national health care is backed by our US Constitution. They are regulating an interstate commercial issue which is completely in their power. It needs to be uniform across the states for a number of reasons: better health for those in poverty, better production from our populace, healthier populace also is better for national security, etc. If people were healthier, and this includes those with low income jobs, more people would be able to show up at work more often and be far more productive, taking less sick days or getting better quicker on sick days because they saw a doctor. There is nothing that says states should own this power.

Lastly, placing us all in the same pool would actually lower costs and unhitch our doctors from health insurance. This, of course, is an argument for UHC, which I am for all the way. It's time we stopped making excuses and joined the rest of the industrialized world. We have a wrong headed mentality about this topic and it's going to kill us financially because the Health Insurance Companies sure aren't going to stop raising their prices. In 10 years, if it keeps going, none of us but the top 5% of this nation will be able to afford an ounce of health care. It will not be available to normal people like you and me. You deserve to get health care and a public option may be the only way that is going to happen.

Why people trust private industry is beyond me and the states have failed us on all of these points. Time to move on .

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by krisk

well VC pretty much hit the nail on the head. having lived in WA state for about a dozen years and watching all the Canadians coming over for actually fairly critical care, but like VC said, they couldn't get in without a long wait... well that's a bit scary. also I listened to a report not long ago about a mahority of the critical care pregnancies being sent to the US due to lack of bedspace.

now the drugs.... well yep, they are cheaper in Canada, and as most folks that travel know, the US is like the Church Lady as far as approving stuff with a little more punch than we already have. it's quite common for people to be crossing the border with all sorts of pharmaceuticals

I have multiple friends of all ages that live in Canada. These are stories meant to scare us and not based entirely in reality. My friends would never give up their system and in fact they love it. More people in this country are shafted by health insurance companies than any amount of people who fall through the cracks in Canada. Also, Canadian hospitals have made deals with American hospitals to take care of their patients. The Canadian government pays them to do so. Why? Because some of the people along the board live in more remote areas and the US hospitals are far closer. It's that simple. Not everyone coming over the boarder is running from their UHC. This is the sort of thing that the Health Insurance Companies and Big Pharma spread as propaganda to get us to fear change. They want their bottom line and they want to hold us hostage.

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

For those that keep mentioning other, public health care systems, with long waiting lists, please remember that in each case one does have the choice of buying into private health insurance. By doing so one effectively goes to the head of the line, bypassing the waiting list.

Why should it be any different in the USA?

That way the rich can continue to receive the premium care they enjoy today and the insurance compaines can continue to turn a massive profit just as they do in all these other countries that provide public health care. The difference would be that the middle class, working poor and really poor would have some possibility of receiving decent health care for things other than immediate life threatening emergencies.

Best of both worlds one would think?

Cheers,
PKFFW

Exactly. A single payer system isn't even being considered here. It's only a public option.

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by HarryT

One fairly obvious solution would seem to be to fund healthcare by cutting the US's massive "defense" spending. Is it really necessary to be able to destroy the planet 20x over? Wouldn't 2 or 3 times be sufficient? The price of a single B1 bomber (approx $2bn) will buy you quite a lot of healthcare!

NOW THERE'S AN IDEA! Oh man! People here have little issue with our government figuring out new and improved ways to kill people but God forbid we take care of our own!

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I could possibly accept that, if the feds would stay out of other legal issues that don't concern them--marriage, drug use, medical procedures, education...

Remove *all* federal oversight, other than a basic "if it's legal in the state it was done in, it's okay with us; if it's not legal in the state it was done in, we'll help extradite," and I'd be willing to consider medical insurance that vanishes when people visit their aunt who lives in the next state, because that state doesn't allow [condition] to be treated in its hospitals.

But the states have had a lot of power to do this already. It's not going to happen and the disparity between states is going to be huge. I mean, I live in Texas and under the current system, we are the worst in the nation in terms of insured and cared for. Republicans run this state and they would neglect the population in any way possible to protect their pocket books.

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by Kostas

Almost excellent (especially if I compare to the Greek one...).
I once had an appointment in a french hospital for a pneumonological problem.
I discovered just a few days after that I had been examined by one of the most famous French pneumonologists (a University Prof)! I had paid something like 5 euros for this...

I knew you were Greek the second I saw your name Constantine

[krisk]

Originally Posted by formerroadie

I have multiple friends of all ages that live in Canada. These are stories meant to scare us and not based entirely in reality. My friends would never give up their system and in fact they love it. More people in this country are shafted by health insurance companies than any amount of people who fall through the cracks in Canada. Also, Canadian hospitals have made deals with American hospitals to take care of their patients. The Canadian government pays them to do so. Why? Because some of the people along the board live in more remote areas and the US hospitals are far closer. It's that simple. Not everyone coming over the boarder is running from their UHC. This is the sort of thing that the Health Insurance Companies and Big Pharma spread as propaganda to get us to fear change. They want their bottom line and they want to hold us hostage.

and I sit in the Doctor's offices not just a stones throw away, but a good 3 plus hours away from the border competing with Canadians for the out of date magazines.

Candian Health Care. By Canadians, For Candians, and not for this American

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by krisk

and I sit in the Doctor's offices not just a stones throw away, but a good 3 plus hours away from the border competing with Canadians for the out of date magazines.

Candian Health Care. By Canadians, For Candians, and not for this American

Thanks for the link. I will have a listen. Anyway, in terms of debate, our system wouldn't be the same. Part of that has to do with the idea of a central database. That is the main issue there. For example: a person comes to a doc with flu symptoms. That doc says you have the flu. That persons goes for a second opinion. Then they go for a third. They don't have a way to track how many doctors people have gone to (I sat with a Canadian doctor on a plane to BC once and asked him what he thought was most problematic about the system. That was his answer.). This can be remedied by a central computer system that allows doctors anywhere to access your data (as long as there are strict security measures and it is not hooked up to the internet. It needs to be self-contained) or you charge a small co-pay, which would hinder a lot of people form going doc to doc. I think we, as Americans, can do that .

[krisk]

the French system answers that issue in the link I had further up

[Kostas]

Originally Posted by formerroadie

I knew you were Greek the second I saw your name Constantine

Indeed! I am glad that my name is not all greek to you...

[ggareau]

I have multiple friends of all ages that live in Canada. These are stories meant to scare us and not based entirely in reality. My friends would never give up their system and in fact they love it. More people in this country are shafted by health insurance companies than any amount of people who fall through the cracks in Canada. Also, Canadian hospitals have made deals with American hospitals to take care of their patients. The Canadian government pays them to do so. Why? Because some of the people along the board live in more remote areas and the US hospitals are far closer. It's that simple. Not everyone coming over the boarder is running from their UHC. This is the sort of thing that the Health Insurance Companies and Big Pharma spread as propaganda to get us to fear change. They want their bottom line and they want to hold us hostage.

Originally Posted by krisk

and I sit in the Doctor's offices not just a stones throw away, but a good 3 plus hours away from the border competing with Canadians for the out of date magazines.

Candian Health Care. By Canadians, For Candians, and not for this American

For what it's worth, I'm a Canadian who's married to a doctor. Many of my friends are also doctors of various specialties (all the way from family docs to neurosurgeons).

You can't make generalizations about care across the board. It doesn't work. Sure, there's a shortage of primary care docs (family docs, walk-in clinics) and that can be a pretty big pain. Yes, the ER can be really backed up from time to time, but that's because of the lack of primary care docs. Everyone just goes to the ER instead.

In the lower mainland, occasionally the government will pay to have tests done in Washington because it's nearby and can fill a need when volume for tests gets high.

The thing that people tend to miss - and I apologize if this offends anyone - anyone who needs a test done immediately gets it done immediately. Anyone with a long wait time has a long wait time because their issue does not need to be dealt with immediately. Yes, mistakes happen, and things occasionally get misdiagnosed, but people who need tests don't wait on them. People who need care, don't wait on it.

The people who have issues with the Canadian healthcare system are often just hypochondriacs. Most of the so-called horror-stories I've heard about Canadian health care revolve around things like fibromyalgia and benign tumors. If fibromyalgia exists, it doesn't seem to be medically treatable. Benign means that it's not doing any harm.

I dunno. I've had major back surgery, with a long wait before it. I know many many doctors, and know more about medicine than I ever really wanted to. Ultimately, while the American system might be faster for those who have a lot of money but don't really need the procedure (or at least not that quickly), the Canadian system works perfectly fine given the constraints that it's under.

I swear, it's all about control. Do you want to be able to buy the care you think you deserve, or are you willing to put some of your tax money into a pot so that everyone can get what they need when they actually need it?

[formerroadie]

Originally Posted by ggareau

For what it's worth, I'm a Canadian who's married to a doctor. Many of my friends are also doctors of various specialties (all the way from family docs to neurosurgeons).

You can't make generalizations about care across the board. It doesn't work. Sure, there's a shortage of primary care docs (family docs, walk-in clinics) and that can be a pretty big pain. Yes, the ER can be really backed up from time to time, but that's because of the lack of primary care docs. Everyone just goes to the ER instead.

In the lower mainland, occasionally the government will pay to have tests done in Washington because it's nearby and can fill a need when volume for tests gets high.

The thing that people tend to miss - and I apologize if this offends anyone - anyone who needs a test done immediately gets it done immediately. Anyone with a long wait time has a long wait time because their issue does not need to be dealt with immediately. Yes, mistakes happen, and things occasionally get misdiagnosed, but people who need tests don't wait on them. People who need care, don't wait on it.

The people who have issues with the Canadian healthcare system are often just hypochondriacs. Most of the so-called horror-stories I've heard about Canadian health care revolve around things like fibromyalgia and benign tumors. If fibromyalgia exists, it doesn't seem to be medically treatable. Benign means that it's not doing any harm.

I dunno. I've had major back surgery, with a long wait before it. I know many many doctors, and know more about medicine than I ever really wanted to. Ultimately, while the American system might be faster for those who have a lot of money but don't really need the procedure (or at least not that quickly), the Canadian system works perfectly fine given the constraints that it's under.

I swear, it's all about control. Do you want to be able to buy the care you think you deserve, or are you willing to put some of your tax money into a pot so that everyone can get what they need when they actually need it?

THANKS! great post!