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Old 04-15-2018, 05:20 AM   #106
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Whilst technically you are correct, morally I disagree. I ‘Buy’ an ebook, just like I ‘Buy’ a audiobook. If I couldn’t liberate them I wouldn’t buy them.
Josie, the way I understand it is that publishers only sell licenses for digital goods so they can't be resold by the end purchaser. Copyrighted physical goods are covered by first sale doctrine (they can be resold, loaned, etc.).

I doubt this will ever change.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:43 AM   #107
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We go through this on a regular basis. Just because Amazon or any other company says something in their T&C doesn't make it true or legally binding. Companies claim all sorts of rights and privileges all the time. People simply assume that since a company asserts something, it must be correct.
That comment was in response to a question about where the claims about licenses vs purchases come from and how amazon gets that by consumers without interrupting the purchase experience. Btw, most of these conditions were crafted by publishers who absolutely hate ebooks and digital media in general as the technology disrupted their status quo dominance relative to the authors.

Obviously, T&C like these or EULAs for that matter haven't been really been legally tested in a court. It is not yet a big enough problem for customers to challenge, and just a matter of time before something blows up and its status gets confirmed one way or the other, or the net result may be some new regulation.

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Old 04-15-2018, 05:44 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by pwalker8 View Post
We go through this on a regular basis. Just because Amazon or any other company says something in their T&C doesn't make it true or legally binding. Companies claim all sorts of rights and privileges all the time. People simply assume that since a company asserts something, it must be correct.
The reverse is also true: just because you didn't read the terms (or don't agree with them) does not mean they're not binding.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:46 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoHunt View Post
Josie, the way I understand it is that publishers only sell licenses for digital goods so they can't be resold by the end purchaser. Copyrighted physical goods are covered by first sale doctrine (they can be resold, loaned, etc.).

I doubt this will ever change.
You're right, but then the language of reading license sales should be less misleading. The purchasing buttons should say "Buy Reading License" instead of just "Buy." I haven't bought a reading license from the Kobo store for a long time, but the last time I did (and all the times I before) I received the message "It's all yours" after finishing a purchase. Explaining how that message is supposed to be compatible with the sale of a mere license would take a lot of semantic contortions, wouldn't it?
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:48 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by pwalker8 View Post
We go through this on a regular basis. Just because Amazon or any other company says something in their T&C doesn't make it true or legally binding. Companies claim all sorts of rights and privileges all the time. People simply assume that since a company asserts something, it must be correct.
Case in point:

FTC: You Can't Void a Warranty by Breaking a Seal
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:09 AM   #111
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Fair use is the US term. I'm pretty sure that there are precedent for format shifting for your personal use. As someone else said, the issue is bypassing DRM and the DMCA which makes bypassing copy protection illegal.
Of course there is precedent for format shifting for your personal use. But please show me where such precedent applies to ebooks specifically or inclusively. If all different kinds of stuff were the same, the DCMA wouldn't specifically need exceptions, would it?
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:51 AM   #112
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The problem is, if you make bad laws or bad EULA's or bad TOS - whatever term applies to a situation - then they will just get ignored.

So while Amazon may have stated that you are only "renting" an eBook, a normal person would not expect that returning too many totally unrelated toasters or step stools purchased from Amazon, or writing too many product reviews, would result in them terminating your membership and taking away your eBooks and other digital purchases.

Hence, their EULA/TOS tends to get ignored. As it should be. There is a concept that most people are aware of, called "fairness". If something isn't fair, then all bets are off. People will save their eBooks locally and protect what they have paid for despite Amazon's claims that they can't do that.

Once you've created laws/EULA's/TOS that define normal everyday reasonable behavior as criminal, well, then everybody becomes a criminal. And by definition, criminals don't obey laws. So once you're branded a "criminal" for returning too many toasters, why not take advantage of all the other perks that criminals enjoy? Like keeping local copies of all your eBooks. Especially since they didn't define what "criminal" was - how many returns for example - and only came up with some vague statement after the fact, like: "You're a criminal - you violated something that we can't/won't describe to you - your membership is now canceled".
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:50 AM   #113
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Don't confuse people ignoring ToSs with them being justified (nay: morally obligated) in doing so.

I break ToSs all the time. Would I pretend my willful breaking of them are perfectly justified because the terms were unreasonable?... not a chance. I accept the responsibility that my actions in doing so might have unfortunate and inconvenient consequences for me. I'm not going to pretend that "I didn't know!" Nor am I going to lamely try to retcon my decision to knowingly violate terms (for purely selfish reasons) into some kind morality-based Civil Disobedience obligation/exercise.

1) Follow the terms
2) Own the fact that questionable behavior might result in personal inconvenience and/or denial of service
3) Don't do business under terms you don't agree with.

Those are the choices as I see them.
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:34 PM   #114
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1) Follow the terms
Certainly. Even the terms that are not stated. Like, "How many returns is too many returns?" Like, "How many product reviews is too many product reviews?" Follow those terms. Even if you don't know what they are. Because you might have your account canceled and lose access to stuff you have purchased for violating some unstated term.

That was the point I was making.

There was a time when I myself would have chastised someone for removing DRM from an eBook. I am a very law abiding citizen after all. But I would not chastise anyone for doing so now.

This is a natural and expected consequence when a company "tightens the screws" so to speak. Another example: Amazon states that when you pay for Prime membership that you are guaranteed 2 day shipping, but if they repeatedly fail to deliver, and you complain about that, apparently your account is subject to cancellation. Because they consider you "abusing the system" for actually expecting what they promised to deliver, and what you paid for. Another one of those "unstated terms" that you should follow, I guess. The term that says "you shouldn't expect to get what we guaranteed to you". And the related unstated term, "If you complain about missed guarantees, then we will remove your access to eBooks as well (totally unrelated to shipping guarantees), when we unilaterally cancel your account."

By all means - follow all of their terms. Regardless if you even know what they are or not. Of course, they cover their butts with the mother of all terms, "We may cancel your account at any time for any reason, or no reason at all, with no recourse available to you". Evidently there are still people who will chastise you for ignoring the mother of all terms. I am no longer one of them.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:20 PM   #115
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Certainly. Even the terms that are not stated. Like, "How many returns is too many returns?"
One, if it was just because you didn't like it after it arrived. I've returned two things to Amazon in all the years of done business with them. One was a faulty device that never worked out of the box. The other was a product that was a completely different model than the one that was advertised/pictured. I don't know exactly what triggers their "too many returns" algorithms--and I don't need to. I've no fear whatsoever that my buying practices will ever run afoul of it.

I'm never going to run afoul of any review-related algorithm, because I don't review products/books on Amazon.

I've no complaints about Prime shipping because the number of times that packages have arrived early is consistently higher than than the number of times a package has been late (which is one out of hundreds).

And if you think my previous post boiled down to "blindly follow the terms" then you didn't actually read it.

Look, I have no problem with people being unsatisfied with Amazon. I have no problem with people deciding to no longer do business with Amazon. I have a problem with people needing the rest of the world to be as unsatisfied as they are with Amazon (and thinking that the government needs punish Amazon for not living up to their personal expectations of how businesses should be run).

Nobody HAS to do business with Amazon. Punish them with your wallet. If enough people feel the same as you, your grievances will be addressed. If not, move on. Do business with someone else.

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Old 04-15-2018, 02:41 PM   #116
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Nor am I going to lamely try to retcon my decision to knowingly violate terms (for purely selfish reasons) into some kind morality-based Civil Disobedience obligation/exercise.
I had to look up "retcon". I didn't know what it meant. Great word!

I never mentioned retconning (I hope that is a valid word too!) anything. You can read my actual words in post #80 of this thread, but they are:

Quote:
So the sellers pushing these unethical restrictions are probably resigned to the fact that many of their customers will respond with reciprocal unethical behavior and remove the DRM and copy the files anyway.
Notice that I used "unethical" in describing both the initial behavior, and the response. That is certainly not retconning, as I understand the definition of this new word (new to me, at least!) My subsequent posts in this thread have been intended to expand on my statement quoted above, including examples supporting why I think this type of customer response is expected, and why I no longer chastise people for it. I was not championing any kind of morality-based civil disobedience. Just stating my opinion on why I believe people download and strip DRM from eBooks even though TOS say they shouldn't.

You have implied (but not stated directly) that you yourself strip DRM from eBooks, even though you also state that you have no issue with Amazon's current practices and terms. I don't chastise you for that. I wouldn't go so far as to say I condone it, not in a public forum, but I do consider it prudent. So much so that I might even imply that I might consider doing the same thing myself.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:35 PM   #117
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Just stating my opinion on why I believe people download and strip DRM from eBooks even though TOS say they shouldn't.
I don't care WHY they do it. I don't care IF they do it. I only care if they pretend it's for anything other than personal selfish reasons (or if they pretend their practice is Justified).

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You have implied (but not stated directly) that you yourself strip DRM from eBooks, even though you also state that you have no issue with Amazon's current practices and terms. I don't chastise you for that. I wouldn't go so far as to say I condone it, not in a public forum, but I do consider it prudent. So much so that I might even imply that I might consider doing the same thing myself.
I DO do it. I explicitly acknowledge doing it. And if they found out about it and cancelled my account over it, I'd have no one to blame for it but myself. Same as if I chose to use their return policy as a personal "try before you buy" service, or took kickbacks for good reviews.

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Old 04-15-2018, 03:53 PM   #118
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I don't care WHY they do it. I don't care IF they do it. I only care if they pretend it's for anything other than personal selfish reasons (or if they pretend their practice is Justified).


I DO do it. I explicitly acknowledge doing it. And if they found out about it and cancelled my account over it, I'd have no one to blame for it but myself. Same as if I chose to use their return policy as a personal "try before you buy" service, or took kickbacks for good reviews.
Boy, talk about using loaded language. You think that removing DRM so you can format shift or retain a backup in case you lose access to the original is selfish? I call it prudent.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:05 PM   #119
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Boy, talk about using loaded language. You think that removing DRM so you can format shift or retain a backup in case you lose access to the original is selfish? I call it prudent.
I don't recognize the distinction. Prudence in no way implies selflessness. I'm using the word selfish to mean "considering nothing other than ones own personal desires/wants."
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:16 PM   #120
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I don't recognize the distinction. Prudence in no way implies selflessness. I'm using the word selfish to mean "considering nothing other than ones own personal desires/wants."
If you don't recognize the distinction, then perhaps you need to read more. Selfish denotes a lot more than that. By your definition, pretty much anything anyone does that doesn't involve another person is purely selfish. Selfish typically denotes caring only about yourself, frequently to the detriment of others. By your definition, if I have fish tonight for diner, it's selfish. If I don't have fish tonight, it's selfish. It's a definition that robs the word of it's meaning. I can assure you that if you run around calling people selfish, then they will take offense, regardless of the fact that you refuse to recognize the distinction. As Oscar Wilde is reputed to have said "A gentleman is a man who never gives offense unintentionally".

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