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#106 | |
I am what I am
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Karma: 62235665
Join Date: Sep 2011
Device: iPad3, Voyage
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I doubt this will ever change. |
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#107 | |
Connoisseur
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Karma: 8236
Join Date: Mar 2018
Device: Kindle, Boox
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Obviously, T&C like these or EULAs for that matter haven't been really been legally tested in a court. It is not yet a big enough problem for customers to challenge, and just a matter of time before something blows up and its status gets confirmed one way or the other, or the net result may be some new regulation. Last edited by gimble; 04-15-2018 at 05:45 AM. |
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#108 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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Karma: 204127028
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
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#109 |
Unicycle Daredevil
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Karma: 185432100
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Planet of the Pudding Brains
Device: Aura HD (R.I.P. After six years the USB socket died.) tolino shine 3
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You're right, but then the language of reading license sales should be less misleading. The purchasing buttons should say "Buy Reading License" instead of just "Buy." I haven't bought a reading license from the Kobo store for a long time, but the last time I did (and all the times I before) I received the message "It's all yours" after finishing a purchase. Explaining how that message is supposed to be compatible with the sale of a mere license would take a lot of semantic contortions, wouldn't it?
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#110 | |
monkey on the fringe
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Karma: 158733736
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Seattle Metro
Device: Moto E6, Echo Show
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FTC: You Can't Void a Warranty by Breaking a Seal |
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#111 |
Wizard
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Karma: 246906703
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Device: Oasis 3, Oasis 2, PW3, PW1, KT
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Of course there is precedent for format shifting for your personal use. But please show me where such precedent applies to ebooks specifically or inclusively. If all different kinds of stuff were the same, the DCMA wouldn't specifically need exceptions, would it?
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#112 |
Wizard
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Karma: 31522252
Join Date: Sep 2017
Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26
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The problem is, if you make bad laws or bad EULA's or bad TOS - whatever term applies to a situation - then they will just get ignored.
So while Amazon may have stated that you are only "renting" an eBook, a normal person would not expect that returning too many totally unrelated toasters or step stools purchased from Amazon, or writing too many product reviews, would result in them terminating your membership and taking away your eBooks and other digital purchases. Hence, their EULA/TOS tends to get ignored. As it should be. There is a concept that most people are aware of, called "fairness". If something isn't fair, then all bets are off. People will save their eBooks locally and protect what they have paid for despite Amazon's claims that they can't do that. Once you've created laws/EULA's/TOS that define normal everyday reasonable behavior as criminal, well, then everybody becomes a criminal. And by definition, criminals don't obey laws. So once you're branded a "criminal" for returning too many toasters, why not take advantage of all the other perks that criminals enjoy? Like keeping local copies of all your eBooks. Especially since they didn't define what "criminal" was - how many returns for example - and only came up with some vague statement after the fact, like: "You're a criminal - you violated something that we can't/won't describe to you - your membership is now canceled". |
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#113 |
Grand Sorcerer
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Karma: 204127028
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
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Don't confuse people ignoring ToSs with them being justified (nay: morally obligated) in doing so.
I break ToSs all the time. Would I pretend my willful breaking of them are perfectly justified because the terms were unreasonable?... not a chance. I accept the responsibility that my actions in doing so might have unfortunate and inconvenient consequences for me. I'm not going to pretend that "I didn't know!" Nor am I going to lamely try to retcon my decision to knowingly violate terms (for purely selfish reasons) into some kind morality-based Civil Disobedience obligation/exercise. 1) Follow the terms 2) Own the fact that questionable behavior might result in personal inconvenience and/or denial of service 3) Don't do business under terms you don't agree with. Those are the choices as I see them. |
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#114 |
Wizard
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Karma: 31522252
Join Date: Sep 2017
Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26
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Certainly. Even the terms that are not stated. Like, "How many returns is too many returns?" Like, "How many product reviews is too many product reviews?" Follow those terms. Even if you don't know what they are. Because you might have your account canceled and lose access to stuff you have purchased for violating some unstated term.
That was the point I was making. There was a time when I myself would have chastised someone for removing DRM from an eBook. I am a very law abiding citizen after all. But I would not chastise anyone for doing so now. This is a natural and expected consequence when a company "tightens the screws" so to speak. Another example: Amazon states that when you pay for Prime membership that you are guaranteed 2 day shipping, but if they repeatedly fail to deliver, and you complain about that, apparently your account is subject to cancellation. Because they consider you "abusing the system" for actually expecting what they promised to deliver, and what you paid for. Another one of those "unstated terms" that you should follow, I guess. The term that says "you shouldn't expect to get what we guaranteed to you". And the related unstated term, "If you complain about missed guarantees, then we will remove your access to eBooks as well (totally unrelated to shipping guarantees), when we unilaterally cancel your account." By all means - follow all of their terms. Regardless if you even know what they are or not. Of course, they cover their butts with the mother of all terms, "We may cancel your account at any time for any reason, or no reason at all, with no recourse available to you". Evidently there are still people who will chastise you for ignoring the mother of all terms. I am no longer one of them. |
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#115 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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Karma: 204127028
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
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I'm never going to run afoul of any review-related algorithm, because I don't review products/books on Amazon. I've no complaints about Prime shipping because the number of times that packages have arrived early is consistently higher than than the number of times a package has been late (which is one out of hundreds). And if you think my previous post boiled down to "blindly follow the terms" then you didn't actually read it. Look, I have no problem with people being unsatisfied with Amazon. I have no problem with people deciding to no longer do business with Amazon. I have a problem with people needing the rest of the world to be as unsatisfied as they are with Amazon (and thinking that the government needs punish Amazon for not living up to their personal expectations of how businesses should be run). Nobody HAS to do business with Amazon. Punish them with your wallet. If enough people feel the same as you, your grievances will be addressed. If not, move on. Do business with someone else. Last edited by DiapDealer; 04-15-2018 at 03:21 PM. |
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#116 | ||
Wizard
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Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26
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I never mentioned retconning (I hope that is a valid word too!) anything. You can read my actual words in post #80 of this thread, but they are: Quote:
You have implied (but not stated directly) that you yourself strip DRM from eBooks, even though you also state that you have no issue with Amazon's current practices and terms. I don't chastise you for that. I wouldn't go so far as to say I condone it, not in a public forum, but I do consider it prudent. So much so that I might even imply that I might consider doing the same thing myself. |
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#117 | ||
Grand Sorcerer
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
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Last edited by DiapDealer; 04-15-2018 at 03:49 PM. |
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#118 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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Karma: 70314280
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Device: iPad Pro, iPad mini, Kobo Aura, Amazon paperwhite, Sony PRS-T2
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#119 |
Grand Sorcerer
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
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I don't recognize the distinction. Prudence in no way implies selflessness. I'm using the word selfish to mean "considering nothing other than ones own personal desires/wants."
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#120 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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Karma: 70314280
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Device: iPad Pro, iPad mini, Kobo Aura, Amazon paperwhite, Sony PRS-T2
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Publisher behaving badly | fjtorres | News | 15 | 04-29-2015 06:00 PM |