New Zealand adds 15% GST to (some) ebooks from today

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by auspex

In the UK, most people have no idea how much tax they're paying, because they're only given a "tax inclusive" price.

That not true, because:

1. The tax rate is the same (20%) on pretty much everything, with a very, very small number of exceptions.

2. Although quoted prices (almost) always include VAT, when you buy something, the receipt generally displays the amount of VAT paid.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by auspex

Depends where you are. The Canada Revenue Agency calls "tax avoidance" a crime. They say that minimizing your tax payments in a way that is "consistent with the intent of the law" (note that they don't care about the letter of the law!) is "tax planning". Hilary Clinton calls Donald Trump's tax avoidance morally reprehensible, whether it be found to be legal or not...

A number of countries use the term "avoidance" in their tax legislation to capture evasion and aoidance and has come about, I assume, to prevent dancing on the head of a pin by plaintiffs in tax cases. NZ (which this thread was started about) and Australia are other examples, so the practice is commonplace.

However, insofar as tax is concerned Harry's definitions are absolutely correct and even a passing consideration will show them to be aligned with the intent of legislation using only the term "avoidance".

[auspex]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

You need to explain specifically how the Canadian/USA tax treaty/conventions(s) work in enforcing through law (not by jawboning)

LOL. There's absolutely no point in trying to have a rational discussion with someone who accuses you of "jawboning" while jawboning. Suffice it to say that the Canada/US tax treaties are quite sufficient that most large companies in the US do feel the need to collect taxes for the Canadian government.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by HarryT

...2. Although quoted prices (almost) always include VAT, when you buy something, the receipt generally displays the amount of VAT paid.

That is true in other countries with VAT/GST too and is commonplace, even on ATM/Credit card receipts/invoices, because purchasers if they are GST registered require such a tax invoice in order to claim the set-off in their returns. In most countries (if not all) having GST/VAT it is a legal requirement for a GST registered supplier when producing a tax invoice to show that information.

So despite Auspex's claim, even when GST/VAT is in the displayed price purchasers do know the sales tax content of the purchase they have made.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by auspex

LOL. There's absolutely no point in trying to have a rational discussion with someone who accuses you of "jawboning" while jawboning...

Sorry, but I assumed from your claims as to your knowledge on tax and its enforcement that you would certainly have some understanding of "enforcement" methods available to governments on matters which are not enforceable in law. I see you do not have that familiarity.

So you need to look up how the term "jawboning" is used in that context and reread my post to see that is the context I was using it in. You will then come to understand that the term was used in no way connected to yourself.

[auspex]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That not true, because:

1. The tax rate is the same (20%) on pretty much everything, with a very, very small number of exceptions.

2. Although quoted prices (almost) always include VAT, when you buy something, the receipt generally displays the amount of VAT paid.

Of COURSE it's true. How many people actually read that part of the receipt (in fact, I've been back here a year--left before there was a VAT--and hadn't realized it was there, but I did at least know what the general rate was before I got here). You certainly CAN find out what the tax rate is, but ask a random five people you work with what the VAT rate is.

[auspex]

and, btw, I just randomly checked two receipts and the tax rate was 0 on almost everything. Now, try to convince me that people know which products are taxed and which aren't?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by auspex

You certainly CAN find out what the tax rate is, but ask a random five people you work with what the VAT rate is.

I would hazard a guess that the overwhelming majority of British people know what the rate of VAT is. It's common knowledge. After all, it's just one number, not like these places which have innumerable different rates of sales tax.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by auspex

Of COURSE it's true. How many people actually read that part of the receipt (in fact, I've been back here a year--left before there was a VAT--and hadn't realized it was there, but I did at least know what the general rate was before I got here). You certainly CAN find out what the tax rate is, but ask a random five people you work with what the VAT rate is.

For the countries that have GST/VAT that I travel in regulalrly and shop in their stores a lot, and have a great deal of interaction with the general public (Australia and NZ) I can assure you that most people have an excellent idea as to what the local GST rate is even though it is not shown in the display price. Because many NZ'ers shop in Australia many NZ'ers are even very well informed as to what the Australian rate is.

In Australia a few supplies are GST free but again that is pretty common knowledge (as some basic foods and medical expenses are the only ones most would commonly deal with). NZ has no such GST free supplies.

On that basis, while I have spent much less time in the UK than in the above countries, I have no doubt that Harry's claim is correct.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Let's be clear about terms:

"Tax avoidance" is minimising your tax payments by legal means.
"Tax evasion" is not paying taxes that the law requires you to pay, and is a crime.



Where does the money to fund essential services come from if not from tax revenue?

The reason that I personally consider tax evasion to be a rather despicable crime is that the people who do it are presumably happy to use the services that the taxes paid by honest people provide, while choosing not to pay a contribution to those services themselves.

However, as you say, people feel differently about this.

Your comments are not unreasonable for those evaders who pay no tax or only a token amount, effectively not contributing at all. But the reality is that most evasion is relatively small scale. A tradesman who does some cash jobs and "forgets" to declare the cash for income tax and charge the VAT or GST etc as the case may be comes to mind. Avoider's to seldom pay no or insignificant tax depending on the "scheme", but they do pay nice fees to their lawyers and accountants to advise and set them up. It is not too far from the ttuth to say that evasion is the avoidance of the masses!

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would hazard a guess that the overwhelming majority of British people know what the rate of VAT is. It's common knowledge. After all, it's just one number, not like these places which have innumerable different rates of sales tax.

Well 20%, 5% or 0% depending on the item.

Who knew child car seats were 5% tax?

Also special taxes, cigs, alcohol, petrol (nearly 60% of petrol prices are tax at the moment).

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by auspex

Personally, I find consumption taxes to be more despicable than avoiding them. They're regressive and hurt the poor more than the rich.

I hear this a lot, unfortunately the simple fact is that everything hurts the poor more than the rich (I've also noticed that most peoples definition of the rich is "more money than me").

It's a hard sell, though, to say to people that you are raising income tax and lowering sales tax, people generally don't react well to raising income tax, but are, bizarrely, more amenable to sales tax changes, petrol and alcohol taxes hurt the poor more but no one seems to care they are much higher than normal VAT.

[Fiat_Lux]

Originally Posted by Dopedangel

If local stores become uncompetitive the businesses shut down area jobs go away with no jobs people move away and the city or town dies.

That is The Walmart Effect, which has been documented to destroy towns and counties. However, that effect is the result of a deliberate two pronged attack by WalMart, on the city and county:
1) By not paying a living wage to employees, resulting in local city and county budgets having to allocate US$20,000 per employee, to cover the services that the cite/county/state has to provide to the WalMart employee;
2) Selling goods at cost, until there are no local, physical competitors, and then raising the prices of items that are carried;

What the Internet has enabled small businesses to do, is expand their catchment area to places that are well outside of where they are physically located.

By way of example, there is a small operation in Friday harbour, that makes the hottest sauces you can imagine --- two million scoville units. By selling them online, it doesn't have to rely on the whims of the ferry service in bringing customers to the island.

Amber