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Old 02-24-2015, 02:54 PM   #106
fjtorres
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But how can format shifting be legal? When you are done format shifting, you do have another copy of the eBook. So if making a copy is not legal, then format shifting is not legal.
That's not how it works.
Fair use/dealing exceptions are still violations of copyright but they are violations that are *explicitly* sanctioned by the same society that grants the copyright in the first place.

What the folks with the big guns grant they can take away at will.

Convince enough of the right politicians that you are entitled to your neighbor's property and they can evict them (and will) and turn the plot (or whatever) over to you. No absolutes when it comes to rights. Everything is subject to change.

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Old 02-24-2015, 03:08 PM   #107
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I think you have missed the "fig." appearing before this part of the Oxford Dictionary definition, which is simply not applicable in this context.
As HarryT has made clear in his post I quote below, I did not miss the "fig." at all. I several times referred to "figuratively described" in my post. Apparently, you missed those references when you read my post.

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The key here, though, is the expression "figuratively described". It's a figure of speech; it's not actually true.
It is an allowable metaphor therefore its usage is correct. Of course if one wants to be entirely literal our language would be a very sterile one, and those who insist on speaking literally tiresome to pay attention to.

So for the case of the likes of ebooks, which everyone seems to have difficulty describing in some substantive way I suggest that for most that regarding them as being tangible, whether that is metaphorically or not, is an entirely reasonable usage and I agree with Murg's usage.

Of course, it may be that as Murg and myself live in the far flung reaches of the British Empire our understanding of the English language is still severely limited. Alternatively it may be that our remoteness from the apron strings means we are more inclined to move with the times and are more accepting of changes of usage to suit the new situations that progress brings upon us: a quality we and our American cousins share with the OED, at least with respect to spelling.

Anyway, I am away sailing for a month or so, so have far more interesting things to pursue than denouncing the blinkering of thought and expression brought about by the purely literal (and which is straying off topic), so will leave it at that.

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Old 02-24-2015, 03:19 PM   #108
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But how can format shifting be legal? When you are done format shifting, you do have another copy of the eBook. So if making a copy is not legal, then format shifting is not legal.
The right to copy (for personal use) is implicit in the sale of digital goods, because they can't be used without copying them. Therefore format shifting (again for personal use) can be legal (and, indeed, is explicitly made legal in UK copyright law).
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:29 PM   #109
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Yes. Whether or not you play it is entirely irrelevant. What makes it copyright infringement is the fact that one person has bought the CD, but two people now simultaneously have a copy of it.
I don't think 1 in 100 would think it was wrong to loan a friend a CD, just because one has already ripped it to iTunes.

I don't think it's even illegal. One is allowed to rip CDs for personal use. One is allowed to loan CDs to friends. I don't think there's anything in law that says one is not allowed to do both with the same CD.

I'm not quite sure I see why even you think it's wrong.
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:09 PM   #110
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I don't think 1 in 100 would think it was wrong to loan a friend a CD, just because one has already ripped it to iTunes.

I don't think it's even illegal. One is allowed to rip CDs for personal use. One is allowed to loan CDs to friends. I don't think there's anything in law that says one is not allowed to do both with the same CD.

I'm not quite sure I see why even you think it's wrong.
It's wrong for the reason I stated: that two people simultaneously have a copy of it, while only one copy has been bought. It's exactly the same as giving someone a copy of an eBook.

It's perfectly true that it's fine to rip a CD to iTunes, and it's perfectly true that it's fine to lend someone a CD, but put the two actions together and you've infringed copyright by lending someone the CD while simultaneously retaining a copy of it yourself.

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Old 02-24-2015, 07:02 PM   #111
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I would make a clear distinction between removing DRM to allow me to read a book on a different device, and removing DRM to allow me to give a copy of a book to someone else. In my personal ethical system, the latter is dishonest; the former is not. Your ethical standards may of course differ, and that's entirely your concern. I certainly don't consider it hypocritical to say that copyright infringement (giving someone a copy of something, or lending someone the original while retaining a copy yourself) is dishonest. To my way of thinking, it IS dishonest.
If you remove DRM to read the book on another device, you are a) making a copy, and b) making an copy that the author/publisher did not authorise.

This, according to your other posts, is a bad thing.

By imposing DRM, the publisher is very clearly only 'selling' you a version to operate inside of that DRM universe. By breaking the DRM and producing another different copy of the book (at this point, you have two copies of the book), you have clearly gone against the ability of the publisher to control the copying of the book.

This, according to your other posts, is a bad thing.
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Old 02-24-2015, 07:52 PM   #112
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Once you download an eBook you've just made another copy. And unless you move that copy to your Reader, you've just made another copy.
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:30 PM   #113
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Once you download an eBook you've just made another copy. And unless you move that copy to your Reader, you've just made another copy.
And all those are *authorized*.

Remember how copywrite works: the owner of the IP authorizes certain things and not others. The actual mechanics don't matter, authorization is what matters.

Think of the many kinds of licensing that allow and even encourage copying or even redistribution (GPL, CC, etc).

It all comes down to what the owner/controller chooses to allow and when/where/how. And whether anybody cares to respect that.

Purely optional on both sides.

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Old 02-25-2015, 04:23 AM   #114
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I would make a clear distinction between actions which are beneficial to you (such as removing DRM), and actions which are harmful to the author (such as giving a copy of that DRM-stripped book to your friend).
In what way would that be more harmful to the author than when I borrow a printed book from a library, lend it to a friend, buy a used copy, or inherit a book from my parents? In each of these cases, neither the author nor the publisher sees any money, but to my knowledge no one has ever considered any of this to be dishonest? Books have always had more readers than they had buyers, and haven't we all been encouraged, in the pre-digital age, to read books, without having been warned not ever to read any books we haven't personally bought? Only with ebooks the vendors had the glorious idea of selling non-transferable personal "reading rights" to individual readers, for about the same price as the printed book -- a very good idea from their POV, particularly since their costs per additional licence sold are approximately zero. But if sharing a book with a friend is harmful to the author and thus (as you've said in a different post) dishonest, then buying a printed book, where this can be freely done, would inherently be less honest than buying a DRM'd ebook?

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Old 02-25-2015, 05:19 AM   #115
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In what way would that be more harmful to the author than when I borrow a printed book from a library, lend it to a friend, buy a used copy, or inherit a book from my parents? In each of these cases, neither the author nor the publisher sees any money, but to my knowledge no one has ever considered any of this to be dishonest? Books have always had more readers than they had buyers, and haven't we all been encouraged, in the pre-digital age, to read books, without having been warned not ever to read any books we haven't personally bought? Only with ebooks the vendors had the glorious idea of selling non-transferable personal "reading rights" to individual readers, for about the same price as the printed book -- a very good idea from their POV, particularly since their costs per additional licence sold are approximately zero. But if sharing a book with a friend is harmful to the author and thus (as you've said in a different post) dishonest, then buying a printed book, where this can be freely done, would inherently be less honest than buying a DRM'd ebook?
+1 This is the way consumers tend to look at things.

Fundamentally, copyright is basically about who has the right to make money on copyrighted material. Who has the right to sell copies of that material. Sometimes people who discuss copyright get caught up in the mechanics of making copies or preventing copies from being made, when that isn't really the point of copyright. It's all about who has the right to make money selling copies of a specific work.
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Old 02-25-2015, 05:36 AM   #116
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It's all about who has the right to make money selling copies of a specific work.
Yes, ish. But in these days of cost-free duplication of electronic media, I think the right to control mass distribution (whether paid or not) has to also come into it.
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Old 02-25-2015, 07:52 AM   #117
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Fundamentally, copyright is basically about who has the right to make money on copyrighted material.
Spot on.

From economic view point, copyright is a necessary evil. It is evil because copyright is nothing more than a scheme to create monopoly (albeit a legal one). It is necessary because without it a would-be creator of copyrighted work would have no incentive to create the said work. Economists always feel uncomfortable towards copyright, but are not yet bright enough to come up with a workable alternative.

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Old 02-25-2015, 08:38 AM   #118
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Economists always feel uncomfortable towards copyright, but are not yet bright enough to come up with a workable alternative.
Actually, this is not exactly true. There is, for instance, no "copyright" where I live (Austria), nor in Germany. We have "Urheberrecht" instead ("authors' rights"), but the difference between these concepts would have to be explained by someone more versed in legal matters than me -- there is a difference, though.
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Old 02-25-2015, 10:19 AM   #119
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From economic view point, copyright is a necessary evil. It is evil because copyright is nothing more than a scheme to create monopoly (albeit a legal one). It is necessary because without it a would-be creator of copyrighted work would have no incentive to create the said work. Economists always feel uncomfortable towards copyright, but are not yet bright enough to come up with a workable alternative.
Oh yes, alternatives have been employed but probably unknown to the (uninterested) public .

For instance, in the Red Zone, the patents have been issued, the inventor received a gratification plus either a lump sum (only if the invention was put into practice) or some monthly bonus based on the "calculated benefits", for a certain period of time. the invention thus belonged to "the people".
Theoretically a better system, as the current one, in particular because the "normal" one is abused a lot, and because an invention should serve the community, as in the tribal age of the mankind.

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There is, for instance, no "copyright" where I live (Austria), nor in Germany. We have "Urheberrecht" instead ("authors' rights"), but the difference between these concepts would have to be explained by someone more versed in legal matters than me -- there is a difference, though.
Urheberrecht is the original Copyright. What people (and probably you too) confound, are the Ancillary Rights - the rights of the studios/editors/publishers/etc. Actually, this is exactly where the copyright system is abused to. Breaking DRM (like geographic distribution rights) is not an infringement of the copyright but one of one of the ancillary rights. Many authors also cede their rights to studios to manage them, but in the end, the difference is/should be clear.

To be more clear.
The author writes a book. Its content falls under the copyright concept and law. He is protected for the duration of his life plus 70 to 95 years for the content of the book. But someone else, the editor/publisher, prints the book (under the permission of the author, of course, or they will have infringed themselves the copyright). This editor enjoys now the Ancillary rights, which have been raised recently from 50 years since the first public demonstration (or "last word written" date for unpublished works) to 95 IIRC (to keep Mickey Mouse still under copyright). Someone publishing the same book will infringe both the author and editor's rights, but if he rewrite himself the book only the author's right. This is why editors always try to get the exclusivity clause from the author, simply by enrolling them under contracts. Because one cannot write in a dead state the ancillary rights will lapse before the copyright, unless prolonged (irrationally, but aren't most laws this way?! ). After both rights lapse, anyone can distribute the content and copy the PD-now book. But, by doing this they start a new ancillary right period, because now they are the editors , so anyone copying their book may be penalised.
Hope it's (more) clear now
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Old 02-25-2015, 10:26 AM   #120
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Once you download an eBook you've just made another copy. And unless you move that copy to your Reader, you've just made another copy.
That is exactly why this word and concept is used: COPY.

One has a copy of a book. One borrows a copy of a book. One downloads a copy of a book. One makes a copy of a book. Even if we are talking about printed copies or electronic versions. See?

Because (read above a bit about copyrights and stuff) what everyone else but the author has is a copy, only the author has the original.
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