iPhone 5S, 5C Announced

[pidgeon92]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I just don't see it as an improvement security-wise. People who didn't want to use a passcode are going to avoid this because it still requires a passcode.

Can you clarify this? What passcode is required besides touching the home button with your finger?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

Can you clarify this? What passcode is required besides touching the home button with your finger?

I quoted this before:

Apple customers who wish the use Touch ID also have to create a passcode as a backup. Only that passcode (not a finger) can unlock the phone if the phone is rebooted or hasn’t been unlocked for 48 hours. This feature is meant to block hackers from stalling for time as they try to find a way to circumvent the fingerprint scanner.

[holymadness]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I just don't see it as an improvement security-wise. People who didn't want to use a passcode are going to avoid this because it still requires a passcode. It isn't another layer of security. It is more like making another door, a door that the manufacturer tells you won't always open for you.

This opinion is based on on a false equivalence between what it means to use a passcode now and what it means to use a passcode on a device with Touch ID. It is undeniable that the fingerprint scanner makes securing and unlocking your phone more convenient than is currently the case. That being so, it doesn't stand to reason that the same people who avoid locking their phone now will avoid using Touch ID in the future.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by holymadness

This opinion is based on on a false equivalence between what it means to use a passcode now and what it means to use a passcode on a device with Touch ID. It is undeniable that the fingerprint scanner makes securing and unlocking your phone more convenient than is currently the case. That being so, it doesn't stand to reason that the same people who avoid locking their phone now will avoid using Touch ID in the future.

It won't be the same. It would be worse. With the current system if you use a passcode you do the same thing every time. With Touch ID you have to use the passcode when you are annoyed that the fingerprint scanner doesn't work.

[holymadness]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

It won't be the same. It would be worse. With the current system if you use a passcode you do the same thing every time. With Touch ID you have to use the passcode when you are annoyed that the fingerprint scanner doesn't work.

This is absurd to the point of satire. It's like saying we should never build escalators because you might have to walk up them if they break down. Or that my building shouldn't have a numeric keypad on the front door because I might have to use a regular key if it malfunctions. May as well leave the door unlocked, right?

You have given only unconvincing reasons why you think the fingerprint scanner will be unattractive. It's not worth pursuing the matter further if you can't justify your irrational pessimism any better than that. We can revisit once the technology is out in the wild.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by holymadness

This is absurd to the point of satire. It's like saying we should never build escalators because you might have to walk up them if they break down. Or that my building shouldn't have a numeric keypad on the front door because I might have to use a regular key if it malfunctions. May as well leave the door unlocked, right?

You have given only unconvincing reasons why you think the fingerprint scanner will be unattractive. It's not worth pursuing the matter further if you can't justify your irrational pessimism any better than that. We can revisit once the technology is out in the wild.

But we are not talking about the scanner not working because of a malfunction. We're talking about a fully functional scanner that will not unlock your phone under some circumstances because it is designed that way.

[elemenoP]

Now I have a new concern about the fingerprint scanner. Read this review:

http://reviews.cnet.com/iphone-5s/

"The Touch ID-enabled home button feels invisible; it works with a tap, can recognize your finger from many angles, and feels like it has less of a fail rate than fingerprint sensors I’ve used on laptops. It’s impressive tech. It worked on all my fingers, and even my toe (I was curious)."

HIS TOE? Does the writer mean that he set it up to recognize his toe? Or does he mean that the scanner couldn't distinguish between a finger and a toe? Several reviews are saying how great the recognition is, because it never rejects your fingerprint. Really, has anyone handed the phone off to another person, to see if THEIR fingerprint unlocks it? I guess we'll see when these devices are out in the real world.

eP

[pl001]

Originally Posted by elemenoP

Now I have a new concern about the fingerprint scanner. Read this review:

http://reviews.cnet.com/iphone-5s/

"The Touch ID-enabled home button feels invisible; it works with a tap, can recognize your finger from many angles, and feels like it has less of a fail rate than fingerprint sensors I’ve used on laptops. It’s impressive tech. It worked on all my fingers, and even my toe (I was curious)."

HIS TOE? Does the writer mean that he set it up to recognize his toe? Or does he mean that the scanner couldn't distinguish between a finger and a toe? Several reviews are saying how great the recognition is, because it never rejects your fingerprint. Really, has anyone handed the phone off to another person, to see if THEIR fingerprint unlocks it? I guess we'll see when these devices are out in the real world.

eP

Come on. Do you really think it couldn't tell the difference between the finger he set up and all his other fingers and even his toe?

People here know I generally loathe Apple and their products. But this is getting ridiculous. If this works the way they claim I absolutely would like to have it on my next phone.

The biggest thing, which has been said many times but apparently never sinks in:

FINGERPRINT SECURITY IS OPTIONAL. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT FOR WHATEVER REASON, YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE IT.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

But we are not talking about the scanner not working because of a malfunction. We're talking about a fully functional scanner that will not unlock your phone under some circumstances because it is designed that way.

OK. If you can't remember a password at all this isn't for you. In fact, a smartphone probably isn't a good idea for you, period. That doesn't mean other people won't like the convenience this adds to strengthened security. Again, assuming it works well enough, which nobody really knows yet.

I rarely see eye to eye with holymadness, but I do on this.

[tubemonkey]

Will Apple release an Android app so I can set this up on my Nexus 4?

[WillAdams]

Originally Posted by pl001

Fingerprint security is optional. If you don't like it for whatever reason, you don't have to use it.

How can you be certain that the sensor is never turned on to capture the data? AIUI, one has to trust Apple, and their software/security engineering --- there's no physical switch, and no indication of the scanner being in use.

I've always thought Apple's original iSight camera design, where closing the camera's lens cover turned it off and opening it turned it on was the right idea. Rather unfortunate that that sort of sensible design has fallen by the wayside.

[pl001]

Originally Posted by WillAdams

How can you be certain that the sensor is never turned on to capture the data? AIUI, one has to trust Apple, and their software/security engineering --- there's no physical switch, and no indication of the scanner being in use.

I've always thought Apple's original iSight camera design, where closing the camera's lens cover turned it off and opening it turned it on was the right idea. Rather unfortunate that that sort of sensible design has fallen by the wayside.

This should be able to be verified by doing a little investigative log checking. But you do realize that there are much easier ways to obtain fingerprints than hacking into a phone, right?

I don't get the fears about fingerprints, it is completely irrational. My fingerprints were taken as a kid as a precaution from abduction. My electronic fingerprint is required for my job for physical location access. All my kids have had their fingerprints on file from birth. In fact I believe most American fingerprints are on file somewhere, and have been for decades. On top of that, my fingerprints are naturally left in about a thousand places each and every day.

Some people here are obviously being factitious. But it's concerning how many people aren't. And those people are far more concerning for society than personal fingerprint scanners on phones.

[David Munch]

Originally Posted by elemenoP

HIS TOE? Does the writer mean that he set it up to recognize his toe? Or does he mean that the scanner couldn't distinguish between a finger and a toe? Several reviews are saying how great the recognition is, because it never rejects your fingerprint. Really, has anyone handed the phone off to another person, to see if THEIR fingerprint unlocks it?

This is mentioned in almost all of the reviews, since it is an obvious thing to test...

[WillAdams]

The issue is the creation of a unique biometric file which can then be used to identify a person w/o their knowledge / intent. I'm fine w/ fingerprint records being made w/ reasonable controls for their secure storage and attendant controls on privacy --- my concern is that there are no such controls in place as-of-yet.

[pidgeon92]

That does it. I'm gonna have to get some tinfoil gloves to match my hat.