Target to stop carrying Amazon Kindle

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

What is the ethical rule you feel is being violated? You should never walk into a store without compensating them for the showroom?

No, of course not, but I do think it's wrong to, for example, go to a bookstore to browse the books KNOWING IN ADVANCE that if I find a book that I like I'm going to buy it, not from that bookstore, but from Amazon.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, of course not, but I do think it's wrong to, for example, go to a bookstore to browse the books KNOWING IN ADVANCE that if I find a book that I like I'm going to buy it, not from that bookstore, but from Amazon.

I'm just not seeing it. But I've stated my reasons already, so, here we are. Agree to disagree and all that. If you happen to bring up in a future thread that this is an ethical breach, you'll please understand if I only reply with "No it's not."

ApK

[ProfCrash]

(Shrugs) I go with the best price. I can't say that I check prices while at the store but if it is a big ticket item, I will shop around before buying. If I am going to be online, I do go to a BM store to check out the good before buying.

I don't see it as unethical. If the store goes out of business then they probably needed to make their pricing more competitive so that I had an incentive to buy it from them and not Amazon. I tend to buy a decent amount from the stores in my area so I am not overly concerned that my occassional browse and buy else where is going to cause a problem.

[CRussel]

I buy locally (in my tiny little town) when I can, regionally (30 km down the coast) when locally isn't possible, and when both of those fail, or when the price difference is more than I can swallow, I buy on Amazon. Which means I buy a LOT of stuff on Amazon. I have, on occasion, said to a local store owner "hey, is this really what it costs here?" on a largish item and had a discussion about price. OTOH, I don't even hesitate about other things.

I would consider it unethical to shop at a bookstore and then order the book from Amazon. OTOH, I've had local shop owners point me at web resources for things they don't carry. (Happened just the other day, actually, when I went looking for a knitting pattern. Shop owner showed me what she had, and we both agreed it didn't meet what I was looking for, and she suggested Ravelry as a resource. )

[ApK]

Originally Posted by CRussel

when the price difference is more than I can swallow, I buy on Amazon.

[...]

I would consider it unethical to shop at a bookstore and then order the book from Amazon.

Really confused here. Are you saying you behave unethically? How would you know there was a price difference if you didn't shop?

And I'll ask you the same question I asked earlier: What do you see is the ethic involved here?

ApK

[CRussel]

The ethic is fairly obvious to me -- doing the shopping and using the B&M retailer as the research, then going online to buy. Just seems wrong to my sense of what is fair and right.

Interestingly, I do not have the same ethical quandry with doing the research at Amazon (or wherever online) and then going into the local store to buy. Maybe that's a lack of moral clarity on my part, but if so, it's one I can live with.

As for price and how I know it? I keep a fairly close eye on what prices are for things I buy at all regularly, or am considering for major purchases. Enough to know when I walk into a B&M store if something is overpriced. And I also know some places I will never buy. (Walmart, for one.)

[SeaKing]

Originally Posted by CRussel

The ethic is fairly obvious to me -- doing the shopping and using the B&M retailer as the research, then going online to buy. Just seems wrong to my sense of what is fair and right.

Interestingly, I do not have the same ethical quandry with doing the research at Amazon (or wherever online) and then going into the local store to buy. Maybe that's a lack of moral clarity on my part, but if so, it's one I can live with.

As for price and how I know it? I keep a fairly close eye on what prices are for things I buy at all regularly, or am considering for major purchases. Enough to know when I walk into a B&M store if something is overpriced. And I also know some places I will never buy. (Walmart, for one.)

I don't think it is ethics at play here.

[elemenoP]

Let's put it a different way: how will you feel when your local B&M store closes? If you don't care, then fine. You can do all your research online, you didn't need to pick up and touch those books (or whatever) anyway. (so then what brought you in the store in the first place?) If you will miss it, either miss the whole experience or miss being able to do that in-person research, then you should have been supporting that store.

eP

[ProfCrash]

I have not been in a BM bookstore in months. The last time I was there was to pick up a Moleskin Journal so I could buy a pretty Oberon cover for my Baby Journal. I could have ordered it online but happened to be at the Mall and had lunch next to a Barnes and Noble.

Honestly, I am more inclined to spend money in a local Mom and Pop chain, ie an independent book store type thing, then I am a BN. The mega stores have done a fine job of undercutting the local stores claiming the right to do so based on larger shipments, diminshed costs, and lower prices. All perfectly fine and legitimate. I have no problem when they go out of business because an internet company is able to do the same thing.

Smaller, local stores I do not browse in and then buy online. Those stores represent something different for me. It might not make logical sense, but there it is. Then again, I do not go out of my way to shop at local stores. Now, if DRM went away, and there was a way for me to go to an indie book store and get some good reading advice from the owner and buy a Mobi version of the book from the store, I would do it in a heart beat. I like discussing books and finding new authors. I don't find that the Borders and BN folks ever had enough expertise to help me with that so I didn't shop there. Indie bookstores got my business because they normally had people who you could talk shop with.

Again, if the brick and mortar store want my business they need to make it worth my while. Provide good service, good info, and prices that are at least within 10% of the online store. Do that and I will buy from you. Provide crap service, no help, and higher prices and I will go online every time.

[wizwor]

Eight...pages...of...the...ethics...of...the...fre e...market...

To those who feel it is unethical to browse at a B&M then purchase from Amazon, I hope you do not read reviews, specs, and recommendations on Amazon when intending to make a purchase at a B&M. Amazon paid for the infrastructure to provide you with that information.

To those who are worried about displacing the B&Ms, please remember that these very same B&Ms had a different perspective when they were crushing the Mom & Pops that preceeded them.

Perfect execution of the marketplace is constant upheaval with smarter people using better processes to bring us greater value. This is a good thing. I know this because my TV is as big as my father's movie screen and cost only a little more than my first calculator. Best of all, I was able to purchase it while sipping coffee in my underwear at 3:00am.

B&Ms have a GREAT advantage over web stores. They can be everything a web store can be plus they have the opportunity to make their sales pitch to you in person.

[K. Molen]

Apologies if this has been covered already, but for those who feel it unethical to browse in a B&M store and then buy online:

Do you feel the reverse is also unethical? If I use Amazon to check product specs and read reviews of various models of a product that I'm interested in, and then go to a local store to buy that product, am I also unethical?

I for one don't think so. I will do various amounts of research for most items where there's a lot of choice. Invariably that research will involve both online and offline resources. My final buying decision will depend on a variety of factors, price is one but convenience and customer service are two others.

Amazon often wins out, but not always. And when I walk out the door of a local B&M store with my new purchase, I don't feel like I've done something wrong just because I used Amazon resources to make my buying decision.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by wizwor

Eight...pages...of...the...ethics...of...the...fre e...market...

To those who feel it is unethical to browse at a B&M then purchase from Amazon, I hope you do not read reviews, specs, and recommendations on Amazon when intending to make a purchase at a B&M. Amazon paid for the infrastructure to provide you with that information.

Now why did you wanna throw a monkey wrench into this mess?

[howyoudoin]

The free market offers us three choices:

1) Take it
2) Leave it
3) Desperately invent a moral code to support your beliefs.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by K. Molen

Apologies if this has been covered already, but for those who feel it unethical to browse in a B&M store and then buy online:

Do you feel the reverse is also unethical? If I use Amazon to check product specs and read reviews of various models of a product that I'm interested in, and then go to a local store to buy that product, am I also unethical?

I for one don't think so. I will do various amounts of research for most items where there's a lot of choice. Invariably that research will involve both online and offline resources. My final buying decision will depend on a variety of factors, price is one but convenience and customer service are two others.

Amazon often wins out, but not always. And when I walk out the door of a local B&M store with my new purchase, I don't feel like I've done something wrong just because I used Amazon resources to make my buying decision.

Nope. So a fair question is; Why? In this discussion I think we see a certain divide between the west and east side of the Atlantic. And I think the reason is: People. For those of us who view it as "unethical", and I'm not entirely happy with HarryT's choice of word here, but since that is what we have been focusing on, let's stick with it, the B&M store is an amalgamation of people that you interact with. When I walk into my regular bookstore they will meet me with a smile, they know my taste and someone will inevitably make a suggestion about something new that has hit the shelves. In my case this really doesn't compete that much with eBooks since the market for that in Sweden is really underdeveloped. I like and enjoy that interaction, I'll shoot the breeze with the staff for fifteen to thirty minutes, they might tip me off to something being released in a week or two. That kind of ambiance isn't available at Amazon.com. On the west side of the Atlantic, people have grown accustomed to large scale unpersonal stores, where selection and price, rather than considerate and concerned staff, are the main selling points. The difference between a B&M store and Amazon isn't as wide.

Now a web page, although in reality it too is an amalgamation of people, it doesn't appear as such. There is no face, no voice, just text and pictures, maybe a video. So using that for gathering information and then shopping at a B&M store doesn't concern me - probably us - from an "ethical" viewpoint. In reality I don't believe it happening that often, at least not as much as the opposite. Even so, there are different forces at play in those similar but disparate situations.

[scrapking]

Originally Posted by frahse

I get mine with free two day shipping from Amazon and no sales tax.

You're likely not really saving the sales tax with Amazon, as the jurisdiction you live in likely expects you to voluntarily remit the tax. It's just the difference between collected at source and voluntarily remitted after the fact.

Except compliance with voluntary remittance is understandably, and unfortunately, low. But that doesn't mean you are really saving the tax. It's just that Amazon, by doing their best to avoid collecting the tax on your behalf, is making you (and lots of other people) law-breakers.