DRM Good or Bad?

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

They manage it by not being based in the US or other jurisdiction where creating, selling or otherwise distributing DRM circumvention technology is illegal.

If DVD ripping software was legal to sell/distribute in the US, you can be sure it would be in iTunes and other products from major software companies.

Sorry to contradict you oh wise one but if its actually illegal in the US to circumvent copy protection, then I cannot tell you about DVDShrink (for windows) and since I cannot mention that one, then I guess I also cannot mention DVDbackup (a command line tool for linux)...and obviously I'm precluded from mentioning MacTheRipper (for OS X) all sold freely in the US. Or at least they were when I was a pirate.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Sorry to contradict you oh wise one but if its actually illegal in the US to circumvent copy protection, then I cannot tell you about DVDShrink (for windows) and since I cannot mention that one, then I guess I also cannot mention DVDbackup (a command line tool for linux)...and obviously I'm precluded from mentioning MacTheRipper (for OS X) all sold freely in the US. Or at least they were when I was a pirate.

Yes, it is illegal in the US to sell DRM removal software. There is no doubt about this whatever. See 17 USC Sec. 1201 (a)(2)

The punishment for violating that provision "wilfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain" are a fine of up to $500,000 and/or imprisonment for 5 years.

And this is why there are no US companies selling DVD ripping software. This doesn't mean that DVD ripping software isn't available for sale to US citizens, as it may not be illegal in the home countries of the firms selling it. (It isn't in Canada, for instance, at least until the next copyright bill there passes.)

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Yes, it is illegal in the US to sell DRM removal software. There is no doubt about this whatever. See 17 USC Sec. 1201 (a)(2)

The punishment for violating that provision "wilfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain" are a fine of up to $500,000 and/or imprisonment for 5 years.

And this is why there are no US companies selling DVD ripping software. This doesn't mean that DVD ripping software isn't available for sale to US citizens, as it may not be illegal in the home countries of the firms selling it. (It isn't in Canada, for instance, at least until the next copyright bill there passes.)

I'm not saying it isn't illegal, I'm saying that you can buy it in America.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

I'm not saying it isn't illegal, I'm saying that you can buy it in America.

OK, I must have misunderstood your post.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

OK, I must have misunderstood your post.

Well clarity has never been one of my strong points.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Sorry the information came from a Wikipedia article too, so I guess you can't reliably quote them! Here is a quote from techtips which seems to contradict what I said.

“Getting rid of your e-book's DRM is allowed for personal use, such as making backup copies or transferring your e-book onto a different device. However, breaking DRM in order to distribute or access pirated copies can get you in serious legal trouble. Violating copyright law can land you with heavy fees or even jail time. Do not share your DRM-hacked e-books with anyone else.”

The terms pirate and piracy do get used pretty loosely, as anamardoll commented, but my preferred definition goes along with your quoted tip: that distributing or making copies illegally available is piracy (whether they were originally DRM protected or not); just breaking DRM is something else - exactly what depends on your jurisdiction.

The "allowed for personal use" is (in my opinion) a little strongly worded for what I've seen of the DMCA. I would suggest "it may not be technically illegal" would be closer to the mark, since there are still issues there with regard to violating the license that you have technically agreed to when you made the purchase (but there's an old, and very long, thread that goes into that aspect elsewhere on this forum).

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

I'm not saying it isn't illegal, I'm saying that you can buy it in America.

Buying in America != Selling from America.

I'm guessing that those tools mentioned above are sold from another country. That you are able to send them money online and download the software is another matter entirely.

[no.guru]

Hold on - you mean people pay for ripping software? It's included in my operating system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqkU1y0AYc#t=08m02s

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Buying in America != Selling from America.

I'm guessing that those tools mentioned above are sold from another country. That you are able to send them money online and download the software is another matter entirely.

Well four of them are registered at Godaddy.com which is an American company.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Well four of them are registered at Godaddy.com which is an American company.

I think you mean that their domain names are hosted at Godaddy. Quite a different thing!

I would be absolutely astonished if any of them are based in the US.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I think you mean that their domain names are hosted at Godaddy. Quite a different thing!

I would be absolutely astonished if any of them are based in the US.

Godaddy is a Domain name registrar. They do also host websites, but I was referring to the fact that the domains are registered with Godaddy.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Godaddy is a Domain name registrar. They do also host websites, but I was referring to the fact that the domains are registered with Godaddy.

I think we're saying the same thing with slightly different terminology.

That a domain name is registered/hosted with a US company or whether a web site is hosted/served by a US company is neither here nor there in this instance.

The question is, in which country is the company selling the product based? Which country's laws does it have to obey?

None of them are based in the US. Or if they are, they are liable to criminal prosecution.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I think we're saying the same thing with slightly different terminology.

That a domain name is registered/hosted with a US company or whether a web site is hosted/served by a US company is neither here nor there in this instance.

The question is, in which country is the company selling the product based? Which country's laws does it have to obey?

None of them are based in the US. Or if they are, they are liable to criminal prosecution.

Well we're not actually.

If a website is Hosted by an American company, Godaddy, in this example, then they are renting space on servers which are based on American soil. They would then come under American law as far as copyright infringement is concerned. This I know for a fact because I rent servers in Texas and although I am based in Europe, have to abide by American Jurisprudence.

What I am not sure of is: If a website is registered by an American company (Godaddy) but the website owners are based outside of America, they are governed by the same American laws. Common sense tells me that they would be, but then Common Sense and Law don't go hand in hand.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

What I am not sure of is: If a website is registered by an American company (Godaddy) but the website owners are based outside of America, they are governed by the same American laws. Common sense tells me that they would be, but then Common Sense and Law don't go hand in hand.

For copyright infringement it is tricky. For copyright infringement, server location does matter, which is one reason why MobileRead's servers are in Canada.

But for a sale of software, I think it's the location of the company that's important, as (in general) the US can't prosecute people who aren't in the US. Of course, given the Skylarov precedent, if I was part of a company selling DVD ripping software, I would be hesitant about visiting the US.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

For copyright infringement it is tricky. For copyright infringement, server location does matter, which is one reason why MobileRead's servers are in Canada.

But for a sale of software, I think it's the location of the company that's important, as (in general) the US can't prosecute people who aren't in the US. Of course, given the Skylarov precedent, if I was part of a company selling DVD ripping software, I would be hesitant about visiting the US.

They may not be able to prosecute people outside of the US, but they should be able shut down their website via Godaddy.

Anyway, I feel that I've hogged this post long enough and taken it slightly off topic, so as Father of the Forum I bow to your knowledge and exit stage left.