Study: As E-Readers Increase, So Does Resistance

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by ApK

That's because physical items have different properties than digital items, so naturally the specifics of the restrictions are different. Why on earth would you expect the rules to be exactly the same?

That does not make sense. An ebook file and a DVD movie are both digital files, one is on polycarbonate and one is on magnetic media (or SSD, etc). The rules are EXACTLY the same as far as ownership goes.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

That does not make sense. An ebook file and a DVD movie are both digital files, one is on polycarbonate and one is on magnetic media (or SSD, etc). The rules are EXACTLY the same as far as ownership goes.

Not at all. You can resell or give away the DVD. The rules of nature say that if you give the DVD (or the paperback, or the widget) to someone, you no longer have it and they, do, and you can only do that once, so the laws and license terms concerning it take that into consideration. But if you downloaded the movie without the DVD, eg, in digital form only, like an ebook, then the vendors use DRM and modification of the licenses terms to make up for the absence of the protection that the laws of nature give them over a physical object. Otherwise it would be too cheap and easy to make million copies and distributed them. (That's the theory anyway. The fact that it's current implementation is ineffective, and unfair, and causes more inconvenience than it offers protection is the real issue, not the theory, which is valid.)

Let's look at it another way. Since I just finished a Jonathan Swift book, I'll make A Modest Proposal:
E-books allow us to carry thousands of long books in our pocket, they can be replaced instantly if they are lost, and can be read online wherever we happen to be, and we can change the font to suit us.
How dare physical book sellers deny us these rights and abilities and charge us the same, sometimes MORE than the ebook, for the same content!?!
I propose we insist that publisher use weightless, nano-thin paper, so I can carry a thousand books in my pocket. We should insist they instantly dispatch a messenger to deliver us a new copy if we lose or damage ours, or forget to bring it while traveling. They must reprint the book in the font of our choice, any time we ask, all at no charge to us.
Otherwise, how dare they deceive us into thinking we are 'buying' the book, when they are clearly restricting our right of ownership so much! If they don't, they must be forced to put all these restrictions, including the size and weight of each book, clearly on the book, or else it's false advertising!

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by ApK

Not at all. You can resell or give away the DVD. The rules of nature say that if you give the DVD (or the paperback, or the widget) to someone, you no longer have it and they, do, and you can only do that once, so the laws and rules concerning it take that into consideration. But if you downloaded the movie without the DVD, eg, in digital form only, like an ebook, then the vendors use DRM and modification of the licenses term to make up for the absence of the protection that the laws of nature give them over a physical object. Otherwise it would be too cheap and easy to make million copies and distributed them. (That's the theory anyway. The fact that it's current implementation is ineffective, and unfair, and causes more inconvenience than it offers protection is the real issue, not the theory, which is valid.)

Let's look at it another way. Since I just finished a Jonathan Swift book, I'll make A Modest Proposal:
E-books allow us to carry thousands of long books in our pocket, they can be replaced instantly if they are lost, and can be read online wherever we happen to be, and we can change the font to suit us.
How dare physical book sellers deny us these rights and abilities and charge us the same, sometimes MORE than the ebook, for the same content!?!
I propose we insist that publisher use weightless, nano-thin paper, so I can carry a thousand books in my pocket. We should insist they instantly dispatch a messenger to deliver us a new copy if we lose or damage ours, or forget to bring it while traveling. They must reprint the book in the font of our choice, any time we ask, all at no charge to us.
Otherwise, how dare they deceive us into thinking we are 'buying' the book, when they are clearly restricting our right of ownership so much! If they don't, they must be forced to put all these restrictions, including the size and weight of each book, clearly on the book, or else it's false advertising!

Sorry, all of that went over my head. When I purchase a paper book I am purchasing it as-is, but it becomes my property. Same for any ebook...

[ApK]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Sorry, all of that went over my head. When I purchase a paper book I am purchasing it as-is, but it becomes my property. Same for any ebook...

The paper is your property, not the content of the book. There is no paper with an ebook.

[Tony1988]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Sorry, all of that went over my head. When I purchase a paper book I am purchasing it as-is, but it becomes my property. Same for any ebook...

Its not yours to keep though but with a paper book it is yours until you die and you can give it to someone else.

With ebooks if you stop using ereaders (or if the technology updates and the current becomes obsolete) you will lose the book. With paper books the only way you lose it is if you give it away or its destroyed during your lifetime.


I think this is where apk is coming from.

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

That does not make sense. An ebook file and a DVD movie are both digital files, one is on polycarbonate and one is on magnetic media (or SSD, etc). The rules are EXACTLY the same as far as ownership goes.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by ApK

Not at all. You can resell or give away the DVD. The rules of nature say that if you give the DVD (or the paperback, or the widget) to someone, you no longer have it and they, do, and you can only do that once, so the laws and rules concerning it take that into consideration. But if you downloaded the movie without the DVD, eg, in digital form only, like an ebook, then the vendors use DRM and modification of the licenses term to make up for the absence of the protection that the laws of nature give them over a physical object. Otherwise it would be too cheap and easy to make million copies and distributed them. (That's the theory anyway. The fact that it's current implementation is ineffective, and unfair, and causes more inconvenience than it offers protection is the real issue, not the theory, which is valid.)

I can make a copy of the DVD just as easily as I can make a copy of an MP3.

The "rules of nature"? What does that even mean? The applicable rule here is called the "First Sale Doctrine". They tried this license away the individual right to sell or dispose of your property before, and it failed.

Unfortunately I don't think the court system is as good about such decisions these days..partially due to the burden of laws like the DMCA.

Redigi is in a different situation - the lack of DRM on audio files is helping them out - no violation of the DMCA to copy the files.

[QuantumIguana]

I won't pay a cent extra for an e-book, because it costs less to produce, and by removing the secondary market, it makes the effective costs of books higher.

If DRM gets in the way of my reading a book that I purchased, I will remove it. That is reality, that people will rebel and not be bound by some terms of service.

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

Its not yours to keep though but with a paper book it is yours until you die and you can give it to someone else.

With ebooks if you stop using ereaders (or if the technology updates and the current becomes obsolete) you will lose the book. With paper books the only way you lose it is if you give it away or its destroyed during your lifetime.


I think this is where apk is coming from.

If the ebooks somehow become unavailable for me that is an indication that I failed to properly backup the files. It is available for life unless I messed up...

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by ApK

The paper is your property, not the content of the book. There is no paper with an ebook.

I see what you're saying, but I still maintain that the "Buy" button should be replaced with "Rent for as long as you own one of our ereaders."

And I'll stop arguing with you when you bow to the superior wisdom of all my arguments!

[WT Sharpe]

@ApK: But I really like your suggestion that people need to band together for change.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

I can make a copy of the DVD just as easily as I can make a copy of an MP3.

And I can make a copy of an ebook and view it forever on any device. What's your point? This is about what's allowed, and what SHOULD be allowed, not what's technically possible.

The "rules of nature"?

It's means one physical book is one book. You can't press a button and create infinite free duplicates. You can't give the book to someone else and still have it yourself. digital data is different. That's why First Sale can apply to physical possessions but may not work so well with digital data, and that why IP providers want different rules to account for the different properties. Cuz they're different, see?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

And I'll stop arguing with you when you bow to the superior wisdom of all my arguments!

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

@ApK: But I really like your suggestion that people need to band together for change.

I'll comprise and acknowledge your superior wisdom of liking my suggestion.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I see what you're saying, but I still maintain that the "Buy" button should be replaced with "Rent for as long as you own one of our ereaders."

Should movie theaters replace "buy a ticket" with "rent for the duration of the 8pm showing?"
1, it's not needed. People get it.
2, it's wrong, it's not a rental.
3, what SHOULD be done is that rules and practices be changed so ebooks are NOT bound to the life of the device or the life of some DRM provider!

I'm sure we can agree on 3, in any case.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by ApK

I'll comprise and acknowledge your superior wisdom of liking my suggestion.

Originally Posted by ApK

Should movie theaters replace "buy a ticket" with "rent for the duration of the 8pm showing?"
1, it's not needed. People get it.
2, it's wrong, it's not a rental.
3, what SHOULD be done is that rules and practices be changed so ebooks are NOT bound to the life of the device or the life of some DRM provider!

I'm sure we can agree on 3, in any case.

Yes we can!

[Kumabjorn]

How about comparing p-books with buying a car and e-books with leasing a car? Would that make sense?