LCD vs. e-ink: The eyestrain debate - Page 8

ProDigit · 11-30-2011, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elcreative

And LCD "diffuse" light is NOT the same as diffuse reflective light...

It is indeed not, however it is VERY similar!
Reflected light had to pass the pixels, before being reflected back to the user. In essence it's passing the LCD Substrate twice.
With a backlit LCD screen light only passes the LCD substrate (or pixel) once.

A dark pixel passing 20% of light, on an LCD screen with backlight might seem like a dark grey pixel (with 20% light).
On a reflected surface, 20% of the light hits the reflection surface (minus diffused light from surrounding pixels). Of that 20%, only 20% will pass the black pixel again. So theoretically, 5% of light would hit the eye, thus black pixels on reflective screens look blacker, and white pixels on LCD's look whiter.

This makes that on a backlit LCD it is theoretically possible to reach brighter whites, and the overall image would be lighter.

For some reason, when reducing LCD backlight, black pixels will appear more grey, as backlight diffuses and black pixels will emanate a higher light ratio than their white pixels on lower nits comparing to higher nits.
Increase the brightness and contrast ratio, and you will perceive darker blacks (the one you desire for black text), but also too bright whites.

Very complex stuff....

Namekuseijin · 11-30-2011, 06:29 AM

No doubt e-ink better. E-ink here being the broad term for reflective display techs, not the particular one from one company, and should also count TFT LCD and Mirasol displays among them.

That said, I don't care. I won't be reading under the sun so that backlit becomes inviable, but then neither will be Kindle users: you can see from the iconic image they too prefer to read under a tree's shadow. Indeed or on the bed too, where having backlight is an advantage (as long as I can dim it).

The only eyestrain I feel occasionally is when I'm reading on the bus and there's too much trepidation. It's got nothing to do with display tech, only the fact that it makes harder for the eyes to follow the smaller font. In those moments, I simply put aside reading and wait for more stable terrain.

Sweetpea · 11-30-2011, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namekuseijin

The only eyestrain I feel occasionally is when I'm reading on the bus and there's too much trepidation. It's got nothing to do with display tech, only the fact that it makes harder for the eyes to follow the smaller font. In those moments, I simply put aside reading and wait for more stable terrain.

Or you enlarge the font on your book!

(I do that when I'm more tired, I can keep reading longer that way!)

Prestidigitweeze · 11-30-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namekuseijin

. . . but then neither will be Kindle users: you can see from the iconic image they too prefer to read under a tree's shadow.

Nicely observed! You have to use that somewhere.

And don't let would-be-author parasites ask you if they can use your observations. You're the one who had the insight.

The idea is for people to have insights of their own by avoiding cliches of thought and habit to the point they feel more alive and achieve an original sense of correspondences. Those who are unwilling to make such a commitment shouldn't be misleading readers into undertaking anemic narratives on the promise they have.

ProDigit · 12-01-2011, 03:14 PM

^^ Indeed! Reading e-ink in the full sun shine might hurt your eyes, and shadow is preferred.
This makes the dillemma all the bigger, like should we go for even whiter e-ink screens?
As they become more readable in darker environments, they lose their readability in lighter environments like under the full sun.

In such a case the jetbook, with it's LCD layer over a white background, makes more sense!

Unless the brightness of the e-ink background page can be adjusted, e-ink becomes useless in full sunshine, and already is useless in dark places!

And IF e-ink can not have back-lit background like LCD can have, then it gets into a disadvantage in both above situations.

IF e-ink can only have a front light, then more energy is needed to the leds, and more battery is consumed; while backlit screens can have very efficient LED lights in the back, and light can be very evenly spread out over the screen (unlike the Sony PRS-900 series, where the center and edges of the book where brighter than the corners).

So in conclusion to that thought, e-ink is best used in office environments, and under the shadow outside.

LCD, while still in infancy for reading devices, actually looks pretty great in those environments too! Probably equal to the first e-ink screens out there, only with a much faster response time.
And please do not think of LCD screens like your plasma TV or iphone! LCD screens can include pixelqi's screen, the jetbook's screen, and extremely low light backlit screens too (think EeePC701, where with you could set the screen so dark, that even in pitch black environment it was hard to make out any words on the screen)!

HansTWN · 12-01-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProDigit

^^ Indeed! Reading e-ink in the full sun shine might hurt your eyes, and shadow is preferred.
This makes the dillemma all the bigger, like should we go for even whiter e-ink screens?
As they become more readable in darker environments, they lose their readability in lighter environments like under the full sun.

In such a case the jetbook, with it's LCD layer over a white background, makes more sense!

Unless the brightness of the e-ink background page can be adjusted, e-ink becomes useless in full sunshine, and already is useless in dark places!

And IF e-ink can not have back-lit background like LCD can have, then it gets into a disadvantage in both above situations.

IF e-ink can only have a front light, then more energy is needed to the leds, and more battery is consumed; while backlit screens can have very efficient LED lights in the back, and light can be very evenly spread out over the screen (unlike the Sony PRS-900 series, where the center and edges of the book where brighter than the corners).

So in conclusion to that thought, e-ink is best used in office environments, and under the shadow outside.

LCD, while still in infancy for reading devices, actually looks pretty great in those environments too! Probably equal to the first e-ink screens out there, only with a much faster response time.
And please do not think of LCD screens like your plasma TV or iphone! LCD screens can include pixelqi's screen, the jetbook's screen, and extremely low light backlit screens too (think EeePC701, where with you could set the screen so dark, that even in pitch black environment it was hard to make out any words on the screen)!

In many places you wouldn't be caught dead in the sun for most of the year (Taiwan were I live is one of those places) but it is quite nice now or in winter when the sun is out. So I do most of my reading in the shade or indoors. But I still prefer e-ink with indoor natural light or after turning on the lights to LCD. Why sit in the dark with an illuminated screen if you don't have to? Even though I do read on LCDs quite a lot, the tablet for my newspapers and while browsing, the phone for reading when I am on the road. But that is a convenience, not a preference.

Anyway, there are better screen technologies coming up (that hopefully combine the advantages of both), LCDs will be a distant memory soon. As for that "non-backlit" LCD on the Jetbook and such. Most of you users are happy with it (just as I was happy with restistive touch screens on phones, you could use anything as a stylus for handwritten notes or clicking on links in the browser) but it is DEAD. Nobody has made a device with such a screen in years. So you better stop dreaming about it.

shanghaichica · 12-02-2011, 12:51 PM

E-ink

Asawi · 01-05-2012, 05:22 PM

I haven't done much book reading on LCD screens, but last night I got a Nook Color to try out (and tweak) before passing on to friend. I thought it would be great idea to do my bedtime reading on it, and it sure was very convenient with the backlit screen. (And what a good screen!)
However, during the night I noticed that the book pages sort of "followed" me and disturbed my sleep. Not the book content, but the vision of the pages. That has never happened when using my eInk devices!
Also I woke up with a headache, but that could very well be just a conicident.
Today I have played a lot with the Nook Color, and I do notice that I have trouble focusing now (it's after 11 pm over here). Days when I have spent the whole day reading on eInk I don't have that problem.
Having said that, I do think devices like the Nook Color are amazing and most people probably don't have as sensitive (old, tired) eyes as I do.

Black_Epiphany · 01-05-2012, 06:17 PM

When I first received my kindle, I was surprised at how awesome the e ink display was. It felt very relaxing, compared to the headaches staring at a television, iPod, or any other lcd tend to produce after long hours of staring.

Solitaire1 · 01-06-2012, 05:29 PM

I've found that reflective screens are much more comfortable to read on than light-emitting screens for long periods of time. My first ebook reader was a Palm Vx, which had a reflective monochrome LCD screen, and I could read it for hours with no discomfort. Even with its backlighting, which only lit the pixels of the text, I was still able to read it with minimal discomfort.

Things changed when I got my Palm m515. It had a color LCD screen with a backlight that you had to have on to read, with the backlight off the screen was unreadable. I wasn't able to read it for long periods of time due to discomfort. When I got my Palm T|X, it was a bit better due to the higher screen resolution, the ability to adjust the screen brightness (with the m515 the backlight was either on or off), and the larger screen but still became uncomfortable after reading for a while.

This changed when I got my first e-ink reader, a Sony PRS-500. Its screen was very easy to read, and it was much sharper than any of my previous e-readers. With it, I could read for hours with no discomfort. This has extended to my next two Sony ereaders, the PRS-505 and the PRS-600, both are very easy on the eyes.

I have a Nook Color and have used it on occasion as an ebook reader. But I've found the screen to be a bit to glaring for long-term reading, even at the lowest brightness setting. It's great for other uses, such as playing games, watching videos, viewing pictures, but for me it isn't as good for ebook reading as any of my ereaders with e-ink screens.

To sum up, based on my own experience, e-ink is better when it comes to viewing static images (such as ebook pages and pictures). LCD is better for viewing other types of images.

taosaur · 01-07-2012, 01:31 AM

My only experience with e-ink was a Nook 1st Edition in my possession for about a week while I set it up as a gift. I wanted to test it out as a reader, both so I could make sure everything was set up properly and to see how I liked e-ink, but between the low contrast and the slow page turns, as well as the need for strong light, I just found myself going back to my Nook Color. It's much more comfortable for me, especially at night, to have white text on a black screen and adjust the brightness.

Yar-PocketBooker · 03-17-2012, 03:55 PM

I'm trying to avoid reading on anything than e-Ink or good-ole paper. Back light is not good on my eyes.

Prestidigitweeze · 03-20-2012, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taosaur

My only experience with e-ink was a Nook 1st Edition in my possession for about a week while I set it up as a gift.

To be fair to the medium, shouldn't you try a few later eInk models to see how you like their screens? I'm talking about a single hour in an electronics store, not weeks of your life.

Differences in preference might have something to do with the quality of each person's vision and the level of pain they experience with eye-strain. If your sight is robust, then perhaps you don't feel the need to baby yours as do many of our nearly blind MR brethren and cistern (sorry about the pun). If I hadn't noticed a distinct difference in how my eyes felt using eInk, and if the print and images hadn't been more readable for me, then the benefits of having a backlit screen would have prevailed and I, too, would own a color tablet.

taosaur · 03-20-2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

To be fair to the medium, shouldn't you try a few later eInk models to see how you like their screens? I'm talking about a single hour in an electronics store, not weeks of your life.

Differences in preference might have something to do with the quality of each person's vision and the level of pain they experience with eye-strain. If your sight is robust, then perhaps you don't feel the need to baby yours as do many of our nearly blind MR brethren and cistern (sorry about the pun). If I hadn't noticed a distinct difference in how my eyes felt using eInk, and if the print and images hadn't been more readable for me, then the benefits of having a backlit screen would have prevailed and I, too, would own a color tablet.

Preference is preference, but I suspect a lot of the complaints people have w/ LCDs don't stem from the fact that they're using backlit screens, but from how they're using them. Specifically, if people focused on the ergonomics long enough to adjust brightness, color contrast, and screen position, they might have a better experience. I suspect some people--especially ebook early adopters who put in some time w/ PDFs on CRTs--are generalizing from their experience with more-or-less fixed position monitors with brightness permanently set around 80% and black text on a surface that's 98% blaring white. Get a handheld device, crank the light down to just a notch above visible, and switch to a light-on-dark color scheme, and you have a whole different scenario.

The other issue is that people stare fixedly at their screens (handheld and monitors) all day without changing their focal distance. That issue does relate to the light drawing your attention, but you can override that instinct easily enough by taking a minute every hour to look out a window or just across the room.

This article does a pretty good overview: How to Make Reading on Your Computer a Better Experience. I would stress the recommendation to make your monitor position easily adjustable with something like a monitor mount arm. They're not cheap, but if you're having back problems you invest in a decent chair, right? Same thing. I would go as far as to say anyone using a LCD monitor for a significant chunk of the day should have one of these, and they're durable enough you'll probably only ever need one (or one per screen, anyway). They give you the freedom to adjust the distance and angle of your monitor as you change positions, your eyes tire, or the material you're looking at changes.

Obviously, all of this stuff is built in to a tablet, and brightness and night mode are easily accessible in most tablet ereader software.

That said, if eink works for you, by all means stick with it. If your eyes aren't getting along with your monitors, though, there may be other solutions.

BeccaPrice · 03-20-2012, 05:27 PM

I can work at a computer for hours, but when I do, i notice that I change my focal length frequently, and often look away from the screen.

When I read on my Kindle, I don't look away much, but concentrate on the screen.

This past week-end, I watched two episodes of Castle on TV, then the next day I saw John Carter in the movie theater, and the day after watched the video of Going Postal, which runs for about 4 hours. At all three of these events, I was staring at the screen with few if any looking away times. I ended the weekend with a screaming headache. this is not uncommon for me when I watch TV or movies a lot (more than maybe an hour a day)

So for me, e-ink is the preferred medium particularly for sustained concentration. I can't imagine trying to read for hours on a transmitted light screen without lots of breaks or distractions.

View Poll Results: Which electronic reading format is easiest on the eyes?
E-ink	295	76.62%
Color LCD	14	3.64%
Both are equally easy on my eyes	76	19.74%
Voters: 385. You may not vote on this poll

12-01-2011, 03:14 PM	#110
ProDigit Karmaniac Posts: 2,553 Karma: 11499146 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Miami FL Device: PRS-505, Jetbook, + Mini, +Color, Astak Ez Reader Pro, PPW1, Aura H2O	^^ Indeed! Reading e-ink in the full sun shine might hurt your eyes, and shadow is preferred. This makes the dillemma all the bigger, like should we go for even whiter e-ink screens? As they become more readable in darker environments, they lose their readability in lighter environments like under the full sun. In such a case the jetbook, with it's LCD layer over a white background, makes more sense! Unless the brightness of the e-ink background page can be adjusted, e-ink becomes useless in full sunshine, and already is useless in dark places! And IF e-ink can not have back-lit background like LCD can have, then it gets into a disadvantage in both above situations. IF e-ink can only have a front light, then more energy is needed to the leds, and more battery is consumed; while backlit screens can have very efficient LED lights in the back, and light can be very evenly spread out over the screen (unlike the Sony PRS-900 series, where the center and edges of the book where brighter than the corners). So in conclusion to that thought, e-ink is best used in office environments, and under the shadow outside. LCD, while still in infancy for reading devices, actually looks pretty great in those environments too! Probably equal to the first e-ink screens out there, only with a much faster response time. And please do not think of LCD screens like your plasma TV or iphone! LCD screens can include pixelqi's screen, the jetbook's screen, and extremely low light backlit screens too (think EeePC701, where with you could set the screen so dark, that even in pitch black environment it was hard to make out any words on the screen)! Last edited by ProDigit; 12-01-2011 at 03:18 PM.

01-06-2012, 05:29 PM	#115
Solitaire1 Samurai Lizard Posts: 14,835 Karma: 69500000 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: NookColor, Nook Glowlight 4	I've found that reflective screens are much more comfortable to read on than light-emitting screens for long periods of time. My first ebook reader was a Palm Vx, which had a reflective monochrome LCD screen, and I could read it for hours with no discomfort. Even with its backlighting, which only lit the pixels of the text, I was still able to read it with minimal discomfort. Things changed when I got my Palm m515. It had a color LCD screen with a backlight that you had to have on to read, with the backlight off the screen was unreadable. I wasn't able to read it for long periods of time due to discomfort. When I got my Palm T\|X, it was a bit better due to the higher screen resolution, the ability to adjust the screen brightness (with the m515 the backlight was either on or off), and the larger screen but still became uncomfortable after reading for a while. This changed when I got my first e-ink reader, a Sony PRS-500. Its screen was very easy to read, and it was much sharper than any of my previous e-readers. With it, I could read for hours with no discomfort. This has extended to my next two Sony ereaders, the PRS-505 and the PRS-600, both are very easy on the eyes. I have a Nook Color and have used it on occasion as an ebook reader. But I've found the screen to be a bit to glaring for long-term reading, even at the lowest brightness setting. It's great for other uses, such as playing games, watching videos, viewing pictures, but for me it isn't as good for ebook reading as any of my ereaders with e-ink screens. To sum up, based on my own experience, e-ink is better when it comes to viewing static images (such as ebook pages and pictures). LCD is better for viewing other types of images. Last edited by Solitaire1; 01-16-2012 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Grammar correction.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
LCD vs. e-ink	monkeyluis	News	290	11-22-2010 10:46 AM
LCD vs. e-ink: The eyestrain debate Cnet blog	boswd	General Discussions	1	10-30-2010 10:09 AM
Request LCD preview of e-ink book	fgruber	enTourage Archive	13	06-26-2010 02:38 AM
Blindsight and LCD vs E-ink?	Barcey	General Discussions	3	05-10-2010 05:34 PM
Reflective LCD vs. e-ink?	jackitsu	Ectaco jetBook	20	03-12-2010 03:53 PM

11-30-2011, 06:29 AM	#107
Namekuseijin affordable chipmunk Posts: 1,290 Karma: 9863855 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Brazil Device: Sony XPeria ZL, Kindle Paperwhite	No doubt e-ink better. E-ink here being the broad term for reflective display techs, not the particular one from one company, and should also count TFT LCD and Mirasol displays among them. That said, I don't care. I won't be reading under the sun so that backlit becomes inviable, but then neither will be Kindle users: you can see from the iconic image they too prefer to read under a tree's shadow. Indeed or on the bed too, where having backlight is an advantage (as long as I can dim it). The only eyestrain I feel occasionally is when I'm reading on the bus and there's too much trepidation. It's got nothing to do with display tech, only the fact that it makes harder for the eyes to follow the smaller font. In those moments, I simply put aside reading and wait for more stable terrain.

12-02-2011, 12:51 PM	#112
shanghaichica Guru Posts: 991 Karma: 5782970 Join Date: Jul 2010 Device: Scribe,Kindle Oasis 3, iPad Pro 11,15 Pro Max,iPad mini 7,colorsoft	E-ink

01-05-2012, 05:22 PM	#113
Asawi Gadgetoholic Posts: 1,467 Karma: 3865860 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Sweden Device: Kobo Libra2, Tolino Vision 6	I haven't done much book reading on LCD screens, but last night I got a Nook Color to try out (and tweak) before passing on to friend. I thought it would be great idea to do my bedtime reading on it, and it sure was very convenient with the backlit screen. (And what a good screen!) However, during the night I noticed that the book pages sort of "followed" me and disturbed my sleep. Not the book content, but the vision of the pages. That has never happened when using my eInk devices! Also I woke up with a headache, but that could very well be just a conicident. Today I have played a lot with the Nook Color, and I do notice that I have trouble focusing now (it's after 11 pm over here). Days when I have spent the whole day reading on eInk I don't have that problem. Having said that, I do think devices like the Nook Color are amazing and most people probably don't have as sensitive (old, tired) eyes as I do.

01-05-2012, 06:17 PM	#114
Black_Epiphany Junior Member Posts: 2 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Kindle Touch	When I first received my kindle, I was surprised at how awesome the e ink display was. It felt very relaxing, compared to the headaches staring at a television, iPod, or any other lcd tend to produce after long hours of staring.

01-07-2012, 01:31 AM	#116
taosaur intelligent posterior Posts: 1,562 Karma: 21295618 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Ohiopolis Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2, Samsung S8, Lenovo Tab 3 Pro	My only experience with e-ink was a Nook 1st Edition in my possession for about a week while I set it up as a gift. I wanted to test it out as a reader, both so I could make sure everything was set up properly and to see how I liked e-ink, but between the low contrast and the slow page turns, as well as the need for strong light, I just found myself going back to my Nook Color. It's much more comfortable for me, especially at night, to have white text on a black screen and adjust the brightness.

03-17-2012, 03:55 PM	#117
Yar-PocketBooker Fanatic Posts: 589 Karma: 6976 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: New York Device: PocketBooks and Onyxes and anything E-Ink...	I'm trying to avoid reading on anything than e-Ink or good-ole paper. Back light is not good on my eyes.

03-20-2012, 05:27 PM	#120
BeccaPrice Wizard Posts: 2,146 Karma: 11174187 Join Date: Jan 2011 Device: Sony 350, K3-3G, K4SO, KPW	I can work at a computer for hours, but when I do, i notice that I change my focal length frequently, and often look away from the screen. When I read on my Kindle, I don't look away much, but concentrate on the screen. This past week-end, I watched two episodes of Castle on TV, then the next day I saw John Carter in the movie theater, and the day after watched the video of Going Postal, which runs for about 4 hours. At all three of these events, I was staring at the screen with few if any looking away times. I ended the weekend with a screaming headache. this is not uncommon for me when I watch TV or movies a lot (more than maybe an hour a day) So for me, e-ink is the preferred medium particularly for sustained concentration. I can't imagine trying to read for hours on a transmitted light screen without lots of breaks or distractions.

Advert

Advert